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08 Apr 2012 22:02

Gilbert's performances were a lot more ridiculous than QuickStep have been on the cobbles.

The top tier of cobbled riders/competition this year hasn't been great for the team that was the most dominant on paper anyway.

Cancellara bad luck in E3, injured in Roubaix/Ronde.
Flecha coming back from injury.
Hushovd in terrible form, never really had a chance today.
Ballan and Pozzato have been in good form.

Who's left after those two? Boom, Van Summeren, Paolini...? There were maybe three riders apart from Boonen starting today who wouldn't have been a shock winner and one of those was in his third race back from injury.
inthedrops.net

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08 Apr 2012 22:18

luckyboy wrote:Who's left after those two? Boom, Van Summeren, Paolini...? There were maybe three riders apart from Boonen starting today who wouldn't have been a shock winner and one of those was injured.


This. Apart from the solo, after Pozzato failed, there was no competition at all for Boonen. Boonen has already proven to be one of the best cobbles riders ever in the years without Ibarguren, so why would this victory prove anything? Look at the names who were chasing or riding for a top-10, those are NOT the strongest riders worldwide. The summit is very narrow in cobbles races, so if the competition is weak, you get something like this.

Moreover, if Gilbert form increases again (which should not be a miracle if the dental problems are true), the Ibarguren argument will fail.
If he is that good, why were there only 2 riders outstanding last year at OPL? Besides Vanendert and Gilbert, I saw nothing spectacular, on the contrary.
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08 Apr 2012 22:30

50ks solo? ****ing ridiculous.
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08 Apr 2012 22:39

Caruut wrote:
Sky had 4 guys, but didn't use them that well. They each did long turns and then faded away, instead of actually trying to keep the pace up. Other strong riders were just sitting behind them not doing anything.



Exactly.
Apart from poor manpower useage by Sky, it's like everyone thought "Only Cancellara could do a long break, so no point chasing hard because Boonen is sure to fail."

I think it was significant that Boonen's lead increased only on the cobbled sections (or at least so it seemed to me), not on the smooth pavement, until he had about a minute.

------------

Now then, let me see: isn't this the same clinic that was absolutely certain that Chavanel did not and never would dope (after all, the French just DON'T); so where does that fit into this whole thread?!
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08 Apr 2012 22:52

cyclopeon wrote:Exactly.
Apart from poor manpower useage by Sky, it's like everyone thought "Only Cancellara could do a long break, so no point chasing hard because Boonen is sure to fail."

I think it was significant that Boonen's lead increased only on the cobbled sections (or at least so it seemed to me), not on the smooth pavement, until he had about a minute.

------------

Now then, let me see: isn't this the same clinic that was absolutely certain that Chavanel did not and never would dope (after all, the French just DON'T); so where does that fit into this whole thread?!


He ain't much french no more :rolleyes:
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09 Apr 2012 00:16

Ulle Relaxes wrote:50ks solo? ****ing ridiculous.


Reminds me of Merckx, biggest fraud ever. Obviously had the 1st gen EPO before everyone else.

Also, ditto on Chavanel. Not sure how we can condemn the whole OMQS when the French champ is obviously not doping.
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09 Apr 2012 02:16

If you're going to dope at least do it with some modesty!
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09 Apr 2012 03:26

Ulle Relaxes wrote:If you're going to dope at least do it with some modesty!


Why? If you're gonna dope, go big and kill everyone! :D
JimmyFingers wrote:Look I no way dispute Wiggins ... he is doping, he's at it all the time, and has been for years.
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09 Apr 2012 07:10

Ripper wrote:Why? If you're gonna dope, go big and kill everyone! :D

Like Ricco here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34AY5epnluw&feature=related#t=2m28s
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09 Apr 2012 07:11

Ripper wrote:Why? If you're gonna dope, go big and kill everyone! :D


yea, why ne satisfied by winning? go for the 50k solo tting kind of doping if yoou first are going to :D
"I know how to ride my bike" - Nibali

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9LBsWCNE9I

Vuelta 06 - the greatest gt in history!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24TQdI7csHs
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09 Apr 2012 08:01

maltiv wrote:I don't know, perhaps he prefers being filthy rich over dying from cancer or embolism? 3 years with 4 million euro's a year (or whatever he is making) is more than enough to live comfortable for one's entire life!


Well, being worried about the health when the financial part of your future is already secured sounds more persuasive then just money, but then:

1. BMC offered a certain rider big money after he had an outstanding season. Does that mean they don't know what's going on in the sport? Could it be true that some teams know it, whole the clinic forum knows it but some other teams don't?
2. If Gilbert starts winning again, would it be a sign that he is not affraid of dying from cancer or embolism?

As for Boonen yesterday:

1. The field wasn't very strong;
2. Wilfried Peeters (OPQS sport director) said that Boonen had the tailwind;
3. 4 Sky riders led the chase. Out of these 4 Stannard looked exhausted from the very beginning, Eddy wasn't that great as well. Who's left? Post-injured Flecha and Hayman?
4. Niki Terpstra had done an awesome job slowing down the chase by destroying Sky's line.
5. The cobbles were Tommeke's allies. There he gained the biggest part of the gap and it's pretty natural since he is the best on cobbles.
6. Lars Boom was the only rider in the chase group who could theoretically bridge the gap at some point but he had a flat tire and I was shocked that he managed to come back and then almost immediately launched an attack which gave 'only' 10sec. But considering his flat tire it was much more than 10sec.
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09 Apr 2012 08:06



I love this video. I looks like an oldschool slapstick comedy that's shown at accelerated speed.

Needs proper soundtrack though:
http://tubedubber.com/#34AY5epnluw:MK6TXMsvgQg:0:100:140:0:1
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The STEPFORD TEAM

09 Apr 2012 10:14

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:If I understand correctly .Team doctor ibarguen worked for Lotto last year, was named in the Mantua-case and worked for Saunier Duval in the past year.

I mean... COME ON. Wow I wonder why all their riders ride faster than ****ing lightning.
Also explains Gilberts super year last year. Not to mention the Saunier Duval super duper trio of Cobo, Piepoli and Ricco :rolleyes:



OPQS are the STEPFORD TEAM .

I,ve been wondering what they have done with Tony Martin - i bet he,s plugged in and being re-wired. Maybe Leipheimer keeps hitting the deck coz they,ve got a dodgey fuse in him :)
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09 Apr 2012 10:49

Kvinto wrote:Well, being worried about the health when the financial part of your future is already secured sounds more persuasive then just money, but then:

1. BMC offered a certain rider big money after he had an outstanding season. Does that mean they don't know what's going on in the sport? Could it be true that some teams know it, whole the clinic forum knows it but some other teams don't?
2. If Gilbert starts winning again, would it be a sign that he is not affraid of dying from cancer or embolism?

As for Boonen yesterday:

1. The field wasn't very strong;
2. Wilfried Peeters (OPQS sport director) said that Boonen had the tailwind;
3. 4 Sky riders led the chase. Out of these 4 Stannard looked exhausted from the very beginning, Eddy wasn't that great as well. Who's left? Post-injured Flecha and Hayman?
4. Niki Terpstra had done an awesome job slowing down the chase by destroying Sky's line.
5. The cobbles were Tommeke's allies. There he gained the biggest part of the gap and it's pretty natural since he is the best on cobbles.
6. Lars Boom was the only rider in the chase group who could theoretically bridge the gap at some point but he had a flat tire and I was shocked that he managed to come back and then almost immediately launched an attack which gave 'only' 10sec. But considering his flat tire it was much more than 10sec.


Sigh, I thought to myself yesterday that I won't get involved

I don't understand your point about BMC. Does every transfer go according to expectations? Do they expect Gilbert to score 500+ (or whatever he actually scored last year) WT points every season or 3000 CQ points? Then, do you know whether BMC pays riders according to their "market value" or above it? Rumors about Van Garderen's salary suggest that it's possible that Gilbert is overpaid and BMC paying big money isn't necessarily an indication that they believe that the riders on their team will always perform to their best ability (regardless of medical support, equipment etc).

Then you write about Gilbert winning again. Are you confident that he can be head and shoulders abover the rest on the Mur again? Yes, it's possible that his performance last year was not due to doping and all the stars alligned in the right manner, but then it's quite a staggering difference between the clean Gilbert of 2011 and clean Gilbert with a toothache of 2012.

As for Roubaix

1 is very subjective especially when the winner is head and shoulders above the rest

4 is one of the reasons why the thread is still going on

5 I don't know. He was doing well everywhere including the last 15km where the remaining cobbles are easier.

6 Ballan and Flecha were more likely than Boom to bridge the gap because they have actual pedigree in Roubaix unlike Boom who killed himself with his acceleration. Boom did gain 10 seconds and then lost them. You say flat tire, I say 40km attack the vast majority of which alone. Fact is that the gap between Boonen and the first chasers only grew from the point where the chase group exploded on the Carrefour de l'Arbre to the end.
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09 Apr 2012 11:23

Boonen's unusual style of winning was the same as Terpstra's unusual style of winning in Dwars Door Vlaanderen, soloing for a long stretch, 34km in his case, and pulling out a large gap.
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09 Apr 2012 12:35

It's not the dope. Those zertz inserts made all the difference :)
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09 Apr 2012 14:16

roundabout wrote:Sigh, I thought to myself yesterday that I won't get involved

I don't understand your point about BMC. Does every transfer go according to expectations? Do they expect Gilbert to score 500+ (or whatever he actually scored last year) WT points every season or 3000 CQ points? Then, do you know whether BMC pays riders according to their "market value" or above it? Rumors about Van Garderen's salary suggest that it's possible that Gilbert is overpaid and BMC paying big money isn't necessarily an indication that they believe that the riders on their team will always perform to their best ability (regardless of medical support, equipment etc).

Then you write about Gilbert winning again. Are you confident that he can be head and shoulders abover the rest on the Mur again? Yes, it's possible that his performance last year was not due to doping and all the stars alligned in the right manner, but then it's quite a staggering difference between the clean Gilbert of 2011 and clean Gilbert with a toothache of 2012.


TBH I feel highly uncomfortably in the Clinic (definitely not my comfort area) but since I started this myself:

The issue being whether OPQS 2012 performance is the result of dope (the best dope that the others don't have) or not. Somebody pointed out that they (OPQS) work with the same doctor who worked with Lotto in 2011. Then I (who isn't very familiar with the dark side of the sport) became curious: if a right doctor is the only solution then why did Philippe Gilbert refuse this opportunity and joined the BMC? Quite a logical question, isn't it? Is it about the money vs the health? Everything else is assumptions since I don't know what is his current salary or how much he'd been offered in the OPQS or maybe there was something more important than money, I dunno, but now he is in BMC and his last year's doctor in the OPQS.

There are two options then:

1. Gilbert sucks further in the season and it inevitably inspires further talks about the dope no matter what is the real reason. But if this certain doctor is the best solution for a rider who want to win races, then how can it be that BMC had no idea about the nature of Phil's wins?
2. Gilbert starts winning again (I'm not talking about another best season, but, say, 2010 level). This might be a proof that the OPQS doctor is not this mysterious reason why the OPQS are winning everything or BMC have their own 'right' doctor so that OPQS and BMC are in the same conditions (they are either both dope or don't dope).


As for Roubaix

1 is very subjective especially when the winner is head and shoulders above the rest

4 is one of the reasons why the thread is still going on

5 I don't know. He was doing well everywhere including the last 15km where the remaining cobbles are easier.

6 Ballan and Flecha were more likely than Boom to bridge the gap because they have actual pedigree in Roubaix unlike Boom who killed himself with his acceleration. Boom did gain 10 seconds and then lost them. You say flat tire, I say 40km attack the vast majority of which alone. Fact is that the gap between Boonen and the first chasers only grew from the point where the chase group exploded on the Carrefour de l'Arbre to the end.


1. I should agree, it's subjective

5. In the first about 20-30km it looked like Boonen rides the same tempo on the asphalt and increases the gap on cobbles. Then I think they had simply given up.
6. I've mentioned Boom because he had attacked and gained some marginal 10sec which he had lost almost immediately but right before it he had a flat tire and it looked like a miracle that he managed to come back so I presume without the puncture he might have gained much more than 10sec. I'm not sure either of Ballan or Flecha with their 'cobbled pedigree' was stronger than Lars yesterday. One thing for sure - it was already too late in the Carrefour de l'Arbre, once the gap reached 1:00 I became sure that Boonen wins.
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09 Apr 2012 14:48

Interesting points.

But

Let's be honest, I don't see the connection between Gilbert joining BMC instead of QS and Ibarguren's ability to prepare riders.

Ibarguren has the doping history, riders under team have had some rather amazing results and the change in fortunes for QS is rather peculiar (leaving Gilbert alone for the momement).

Now on to Gilbert. Even though the doctor isn't there at BMC there's a soigneur slash suspected doping supplier who who is well familiar to Gilbert and his manager.

As for the 2 options you listed, 1 is not unlikely and certainly isn't unheard of (see Cobo, even if he is an alleged nut, L Sanchez, probably others), 2 would still mean something because there's still a large difference between the 2011 and 2010 Gilberts, also regarding 2 it's not a question of either dope or not dope but rather the quesion of how much one takes to be successful and within the limits.
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09 Apr 2012 16:47

roundabout wrote:Interesting points.

But

Let's be honest, I don't see the connection between Gilbert joining BMC instead of QS and Ibarguren's ability to prepare riders.

Ibarguren has the doping history, riders under team have had some rather amazing results and the change in fortunes for QS is rather peculiar (leaving Gilbert alone for the momement).

Now on to Gilbert. Even though the doctor isn't there at BMC there's a soigneur slash suspected doping supplier who who is well familiar to Gilbert and his manager.

As for the 2 options you listed, 1 is not unlikely and certainly isn't unheard of (see Cobo, even if he is an alleged nut, L Sanchez, probably others), 2 would still mean something because there's still a large difference between the 2011 and 2010 Gilberts, also regarding 2 it's not a question of either dope or not dope but rather the quesion of how much one takes to be successful and within the limits.


OK, I didn't take into account the possibility that Gilbert can still use Ibarguren's services but something has definitely gone wrong in his preparation. We know that Ibarguren worked with Lotto last year but apart from Gilbert I have not noticed the other flying riders there who are suspiciously bad now: Greipel looks the same, Van den Broeck maybe even better so far, Vanendert sucks, but he wasn't any better in the same time last year, we have to wait untill the Ardennes to draw conclusions, though in fact his breakthrough year was really 2011, Roelandts is still injured but he shows similar results several years in a row. That's nothing similar to the OPQS 2012, with their 26 wins at the moment. I read somewhere that after HTC-Highroad folded at the end of 2011 a huge part of their lower-level stuff were hired by Lefevere, so maybe they are doing a new HTC there?

I understand that at some point it all inevitably boils down to the dope, its amount, quality, detectability but I'm tempted to believe that all teams/riders are more or less in the same conditions in their walking on the edge of a knife so that the performances like the OPQS this year and particularly Boonen yesterday are not only because of the dope.
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09 Apr 2012 17:28

Oh, you misunderstand me. There's a soigneur with a very shady past who moved to Lotto specifically to work with Gilbert and then left for BMC in the end of 2009 (when Dr. Jose came along). I doubt that Gilbert has access to Ibarguren today.

Lotto riders, well, Van den Broeck I believe would have done very well in the Tour and he recovered pretty quickly for the Vuelta. Vanendert had his breakthrough year in 2011 as you say. I have certain doubts about him repeating that form, but similarly I have doubts about the current state of anti-doping in Belgium which unfortunately nobody was able to confirm/deny/elaborate upon (but that's for a different topic).

Lower level staff making such a difference is hard to believe. Yes I believe they got a doctor and a couple of soigneurs, but I am not aware of them having such a colorful past.

Finally, I am not the one who would say that a rider is useless without dope. But say a 2010 Gilbert with a bit of "help" becoming unstoppable is a good indications of small boost that makes very good riders dominating especially in the era where the differences between riders are very small.
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