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The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

09 Apr 2012 18:13

"Without that puncture, I would have attacked with Tom and I think we would have gone to the finish together," the winner of the 2012 Three Days of De Panne told L'Equipe

I have no trouble believing this. :D
User avatar hrotha
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09 Apr 2012 23:07



that was exactly what came to mind after watching Boonen ride away like that.
Kodiak
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10 Apr 2012 17:50

Gilbert - I don't buy into Gilbert doping just because he has a doctor willing to provide something. I do firmly believe it is possible he is a lot off his pace this year due to the seemingly minor illnesses he is complaining of. I remember well when I was racing that, far from making me immune to minor ailments, the heavy toll of racing and riding super miles made me more susceptible to small things. And something as small as a 24 hour bug could knock me way off.

Just because Boonen's team manager is LeFevre, and his team doctor has a bad doping rep, too, doesn't automatically mean he is doping. But I would strongly suspect that it means they would turn and look the other way if some new joy juice happened to find its way into Boonen's pocket.

I watched the race on Eurovision, and then on Versus - or whatever versus is now. My question was, COULD this have been legit? Boonen WAS lucky this year, and luck does play a part in it. But what made the whole thing suspicious for me was when he not only pulled away, he stayed away and the guys chasing couldn't close that gap. They were good enough riders, and they certainly had enough desire. They had time on the regular roads - and the gap just wasn't going down.

So, yeah, it could have been legit, but it sure smells like a skunk to me. So, yeah. Exactly like Ricco. And we know what that was.
User avatar hiero2
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10 Apr 2012 19:13

hiero2 wrote:Gilbert - I don't buy into Gilbert doping just because he has a doctor willing to provide something. I do firmly believe it is possible he is a lot off his pace this year due to the seemingly minor illnesses he is complaining of. I remember well when I was racing that, far from making me immune to minor ailments, the heavy toll of racing and riding super miles made me more susceptible to small things. And something as small as a 24 hour bug could knock me way off.

Just because Boonen's team manager is LeFevre, and his team doctor has a bad doping rep, too, doesn't automatically mean he is doping. But I would strongly suspect that it means they would turn and look the other way if some new joy juice happened to find its way into Boonen's pocket.

I watched the race on Eurovision, and then on Versus - or whatever versus is now. My question was, COULD this have been legit? Boonen WAS lucky this year, and luck does play a part in it. But what made the whole thing suspicious for me was when he not only pulled away, he stayed away and the guys chasing couldn't close that gap. They were good enough riders, and they certainly had enough desire. They had time on the regular roads - and the gap just wasn't going down.

So, yeah, it could have been legit, but it sure smells like a skunk to me. So, yeah. Exactly like Ricco. And we know what that was.

1- If a Doctor with that reputation is hired, it is for one simple reason and that is "Doping". Otherwise you would hire somebody else.
2- I find it difficult to believe that he was hire to dope the helpers or second tier riders in the team while the big captains or contenders on the team are winning the races, in impressive way, free of doping. Even if that is true the captains are benefitting from the helpers doping with their work during the race, but I don't think that is the case here.

Having said that, you are right in saying that excess in exercise put your immune system down. But that does not mean that he was not in a doping program with this shady Doctor last year where he was very healthy. Doping can help your immune system with the excess miles.
User avatar Escarabajo
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10 Apr 2012 19:15

hiero2 wrote:Gilbert - I don't buy into Gilbert doping just because he has a doctor willing to provide something. I do firmly believe it is possible he is a lot off his pace this year due to the seemingly minor illnesses he is complaining of. I remember well when I was racing that, far from making me immune to minor ailments, the heavy toll of racing and riding super miles made me more susceptible to small things. And something as small as a 24 hour bug could knock me way off.

Just because Boonen's team manager is LeFevre, and his team doctor has a bad doping rep, too, doesn't automatically mean he is doping. But I would strongly suspect that it means they would turn and look the other way if some new joy juice happened to find its way into Boonen's pocket.

I watched the race on Eurovision, and then on Versus - or whatever versus is now. My question was, COULD this have been legit? Boonen WAS lucky this year, and luck does play a part in it. But what made the whole thing suspicious for me was when he not only pulled away, he stayed away and the guys chasing couldn't close that gap. They were good enough riders, and they certainly had enough desire. They had time on the regular roads - and the gap just wasn't going down.

So, yeah, it could have been legit, but it sure smells like a skunk to me. So, yeah. Exactly like Ricco. And we know what that was.


So teams hire doctors with known doping histories because they...

A) Want to look edgy.
B) Like to keep their press officer busy


or.....

C) Want to get better at doping

Place your bets.
Waterloo Sunrise
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10 Apr 2012 19:33

After soloing for 50+ kilometers, Boonen looked fresh enough to go 5-sets with Nadal.

Gilbert's incredible 2011, the WC Cyclocross race where the Belgians destroyed the field, Boonen soloing in 2012, Terpstra soloing in 2012.

WTF?
User avatar Moose McKnuckles
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10 Apr 2012 20:05

Moose McKnuckles wrote:After soloing for 50+ kilometers, Boonen looked fresh enough to go 5-sets with Nadal.

Gilbert's incredible 2011, the WC Cyclocross race where the Belgians destroyed the field, Boonen soloing in 2012, Terpstra soloing in 2012.

WTF?



You forget Jaroslav Kulhavy last year in world cup MTB - riding away from everyone effortlessly.
I can't remember which race it was specifically but he was coming up to the finish line (in 1st place, obviously) spinning the gears round like he was on a training ride - you almost saw the "oh ****, I'd better make it look like I'm tired" moment on the final straight. Ridiculous.

All the MTB rounds are on ctorrents if anyone wants to see the comedy.
Vino love the rain. Vino love the cold. Vino love the hot. Vino not feel the difference.
User avatar happychappy
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10 Apr 2012 22:09

Whilst I have no doubt that there is dope involved, I think we do allow ourselves to get carried away here. There are so many other factors that can come into play - it is far too easy to just put all variation in performance down to doping, as if a perfectly clean field would perform more or less the same every time.

Yes, Ibagurgen is giving OPQS dope.

There are so many reasons why Boonen won, other than that he was very strong. When people say Sky were chasing him down, they just look at the fact that for a while Sky were on the front. Quite frankly, having just bridged up to the chasing group, I wouldn't expect Ian Stannard to be able to close Boonen down on the cobbles. Sky were ****ing into the wind on that chase, they each did super long turns, rather than TTTing it.

Also, Boonen was very different at Flanders and at Roubaix. At Flanders he could barely hang onto Pozzato's wheel - if Pozzato hadn't been there, he would probably never have got up to Ballan, and ended up coming 2nd. That would turn this from possibly the best northern classics season ever, to not even Boonen's best ever.

I would have expected him to dope as much, if not more, for Flanders, since hanging on in the hills (not really his thing) is so important there. He was very strong at Roubaix, so I think we can see that whatever he's taking, daily/weekly condition still plays a massive role. In Flanders, he almost got beaten by Pozzato in a sprint for crying out loud.

These wins will always have Ibagurgen hanging over them, but they aren't like Ricco in '08, for me. There is a plethora of other (I think more important) factors that explain the dominance, and the difference (if there is any) in the quality of program that Ibargurgen is proving doesn't feel like it would be huge.
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10 Apr 2012 22:29

There's one problem with your reasoning: this isn't only, or even mainly, about Boonen. It's also about Chavanel, Terpstra and the whole of OPQS.
User avatar hrotha
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10 Apr 2012 22:57

hrotha wrote:There's one problem with your reasoning: this isn't only, or even mainly, about Boonen. It's also about Chavanel, Terpstra and the whole of OPQS.


Good point. I still feel like a lot of what I said was valid - there are a lot of non-doping reasons why these things happened. Chavanel and Terpstra are no donkeys either.

I'm sure Ibagurgen is giving them dope - probably good dope. I just don't believe, yet, that he is giving them magic winning juice.

Sometimes doping discussions remind me of a case in the UK where a mother was wrongly convicted of murdering two of her children. In reality they both died of SIDS, but because both died, it was flagged as suspicious. At the trial, an expert witness was asked what the chance of this happening was, and said "less than one in a million". Before appeal, however, they didn't account for the fact that they only held the trial because something unlikely happened in the first place.

Unlikely outcomes are investigated, and then how unlikely it is to happen is given as evidence that it must be foul play.

I think part of me just wants to believe in these wins, but I genuinely don't believe that the doping is the only difference between previous years and this year.
User avatar Caruut
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11 Apr 2012 06:44

If Levi has some "unbelievable" performances in the Tour, and also Tony wins the gold medal in the Olympic TT by a huge margin (although there will be Wiggins, with his ever-decreasing body weight and ever-increasing power), I will firmly believe something fishy is happening.
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11 Apr 2012 11:57

One is brought to mind of similar eye-popping efforts over the years: Johan Muhlegg (sp?) at the Salt Lake City Olympics, making the other skiers look like juniors in his wake. Roland Green of Canada utterly destroying cross country fields in MTB in the early 2000's before his health vanished. Ricco of course and and a certain American dancing away on col after col in the early 2000's. Rumor has it that the press room erupted in laughter as senior journos witnessed Juan Pelotas ridiculous attacks.

Does this mean that Gilbert last year and Boonen this spring are on similar quality rocket juice ? Not definitively but it does give one pause.
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12 Apr 2012 17:27

User avatar Kwibus
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Sylvain Chavanel

18 Mar 2013 10:16

His new total of 12 points lifts the former French champion up from 13th place to first, where he deposes Paris-Nice winner Richie Porte.


Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/14159/Sylvan-Chavanel-takes-WorldTour-lead-after-fighting-fourth-place-in-Milano-Sanremo.aspx#ixzz2NsvYJZSZ


Sylvain Chavanel hasnt been off the tv screen in 2013. I,m getting sick of seeing his face leading the races. Paris-Nice, Milan San Remo......whats goin on ? is this 'normal' ???
User avatar Cycle Chic
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18 Mar 2013 10:18

Is it normal? For OPQS? Well. Expect to see a super strong team in the classics again.
User avatar hrotha
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18 Mar 2013 11:38

Cycle Chic wrote:Sylvain Chavanel hasnt been off the tv screen in 2013. I,m getting sick of seeing his face leading the races. Paris-Nice, Milan San Remo......whats goin on ? is this 'normal' ???


No. Wasn't normal last year when he was suddenly top 5 in chronos in GT's. Wasn't normal that Boonen was back to his old self either. Chavanel was also one of the few to jump off the front of the Sky train during the Tour. It's hard to swallow with Chavanel because his image is better than other guys. Thought to be cleaner.

Then again we all know who joined OPQS from Lotto last year don't we? Another well known doping genius. The guy behind Gilbert in 2011. Won't take many guesses to figure out who made the real difference in 2012 and 2013 in that team. Wasn't the riders.
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18 Mar 2013 11:40

Isn't this what Chavanel is doing for the last ten years? Win a stage here and there. Get hyped by the french and belgian press, talk about the big win in P-N or a monument which is gonna come this year for sure, give it a go and then fail to live up to the expectations?

That sounds like a pretty classic Chavanel-spring to me
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18 Mar 2013 13:09

Cycle Chic wrote:Sylvain Chavanel hasnt been off the tv screen in 2013. I,m getting sick of seeing his face leading the races. Paris-Nice, Milan San Remo......whats goin on ? is this 'normal' ???

Apparently, Sylvain is sick of your constant ranting. And yet somehow the world keeps turning...
User avatar Don't be late Pedro
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18 Mar 2013 16:09

Roderick wrote:Isn't this what Chavanel is doing for the last ten years? Win a stage here and there. Get hyped by the french and belgian press, talk about the big win in P-N or a monument which is gonna come this year for sure, give it a go and then fail to live up to the expectations?

That sounds like a pretty classic Chavanel-spring to me


Get back to me when you can start a Spring Classic with total confidence in your podium finish. The list of riders with the potential and a string of almost-did-great is really, really long.

If we are to believe JV1973's claims about how much doping is happening in the elite peloton, that Chavanel's profile as a consistent with a clean rider based on the consistency of his performances and long, varied, schedule.

Is he clean? Who knows. I will be disappointed but not surprised to eventually hear he was doping.
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