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TDF 2012: Titans Collide. Dennis Menchov Versus Cadel Evans...possible rivalry.

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13 May 2012 08:28

Galic Ho wrote:Gesink has to finish the race first. Lots of potential but same deal as Wiggins. It's what I have been saying for years. Until they get up and go boom and beat rivals at the big event, then it's all just banter and chit chat. Menchov, Evans and Nibali have all done this. So too Contador, Scarponi, Basso and Valverde. All these guys are GT winners, ok some by default, but they all still at least made second. Thus add in Andy Schleck.

I don't understand you. The fact that Nibali won the Vuelta by means of incredible luck and the Giro podiums give him global mental priority or what? Wiggins was the 4th in the Tour riding this as a debutant in GC fight and 3rd in the Vuelta. That's more than enough. In addition, we don't even have evidence to consider Nibali a better climber. Because he showed himself very inconsistently in that line last year. Remembering his idiotic attack on the descent from Giau, oh.. To what extent one's good is measured by how one's good NOW. It is a base of any estimation. Previous merits (Menchov and Valverde) can be only a bit of help.

Andy wouldn't have been dropped on that descent whatsoever in case he had held on with them uphill. And I'm 100% certain Nibali will gain nothing on downhills in the Tour. In order to do it, he needs a climbing reserve, he obviously doesnt have it and will suffer.

I agree but not with your final question. Wiggins did go full blast...the fanboys just don't see it.


...
OK
User avatar airstream
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13 May 2012 08:46

Galic Ho wrote:tl;dr


You are absolutely unreadable. Learn to write concisely.
User avatar Caruut
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13 May 2012 09:00

Galic Ho wrote:True. But Bruyneel has won over what was it, 12 or 13 GT's with riders now? Sky directors have how many? Zero? A big fat naught and are banking on Wiggins of all people. Hop in a Delorean, travel back to 2006 and drop this pearler on cycling fans; "Bradley Wiggins is a GC rider and is a favourite to win the Tour de France." The laughter would echo to all corners of the globe.


Yes, but so would Stijn Devolder 2-time Paris-Roubaix winner. One-day racing is different, but things change. Doubt many people would have thought of Cobo as a GT winner before last year, but he did it too.

I thought he might have made 5th last year, if lucky. But consider who came fifth. Contador. Really? I mean really, do we think he'd have matched the best GT rider of this generation who had won the hardest Giro in a long time a month earlier? I don't think so. Now consider the parcours changes. Yes, Wiggins specialty is more predominant this year. But will it make that much of a difference? I've made my stance clear.


Bravo! A fine argument! For someone who has been accusing others of being selective with their points, this is a bit hypocritical. Yes, Contador came 5th. It's notable that you fail to mention who came 4th - Thomas Voeckler. A great rider on classics and short tours, but a GT rider he ain't. There is little doubt to most that Wiggins is a better GT rider than Voeckler.

Talking about bad luck, it is only bettered by rampant idiocy. Sky have that in spades. They should have won the Vuelta with Froome. It's that kind of utter failure to note a rider is superior to your team captain and focus on them that blows you a GT.


Fantastic, you can use hindsight like the rest of us! At the time, not such a bad call. Wiggins had placed 4th at the Tour before, and they were just going to place all their eggs in a basket that had barely even placed at a major race before?

Geox didn't have this problem now did they? Say what you want about the Russians, but their arrogance is no match for Brits. Katusha are not idiots. They have IMO equally good riders on their squad. Switch the focus from stage wins, slap it to supporting Dennis, they are a threat to be taken seriously because Menchov has the goods to be winning at the end of long climbs. Sky were very good at last years Tour, especially EBH, but their climing domestiques are suspect. Aussie speaking about Porte...good solid chrono, meh in the mountains. Nothing amazing. Sky's best riders are stage hunters, track guys and sprinters. Wiggins would ironically be better off with the climbing help Garmin offer. Oh I forgot, he now plays for Man Utd...who are about to lose their big goal to City. Parallels in soccer mirroring cycling...who'd a thought it?


Rigoberto Uran is a better climbing domestique than Garmin offer. Otherwise this is just a load of waffle. Brits being more arrogant than Russians. Lovely generalisation, but I'm not sure what basis or relevance it has. Little bit of a jibe about an acrimonious transfer, again, just waffle padding out your posts.

Now I am not saying Sky don't have strengths. They do, but their total climbing pedigree minus Wiggins doesn't mean Wiggins can climb with the best in the final week of a GT. Sky can set all the pace they want leading up to a climb, but when the big boys go, the domestiques will all crack. If Andy Schleck goes ballistic, we'll see some poor domestique inevitably pulling Wiggins up hill because he foolishly thought he could match him. Heck, he can't match his own team mates at times in a GT and he is the captain! Worse, his bosses blindly focus all attention on him when he isn't the best. This predicament with team psychology and focus better correct itself for all the fanboys sake. If Wiggins doesn't have the form to be the best placed rider on Sky will the DS have the nads to switch focus? Yeah...I don't think so. BMC and Katusha don't have this dilemma.


So now you can see into the future. You're criticising Sky for tactical failures they haven't even made yet. Maybe it's time to take a few breaths and stop thinking about Wiggins for a few days.
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14 May 2012 03:52

Caruut wrote:Doubt many people would have thought of Cobo as a GT winner before last year, but he did it too.


Clinic issue. Take it there. There is a reason Saunier Duval hot tailed it out of the 2008 Tour before anyone demanded they leave. The reason wasn't Piepoli's yet to be uncovered doping positive...it was Cobo. Plenty of saucy rumours about him out there on the cycling grapevine. Doing what he was...yeah it's absurd, but winning a GT as weak as last years Vuelta was theoretically feasible. Hence why I said Wiggins needs an improvement on par with Cobo's over 3 weeks to podium at the Tour.

Bravo! A fine argument! For someone who has been accusing others of being selective with their points, this is a bit hypocritical. Yes, Contador came 5th. It's notable that you fail to mention who came 4th - Thomas Voeckler. A great rider on classics and short tours, but a GT rider he ain't. There is little doubt to most that Wiggins is a better GT rider than Voeckler.


Context once again. I don't have to spell all the givens out for every reader. Cycling forum, you should know this yourself. Heck look at all the favourites for the Vuelta. All raced the Giro, they all bombed out. Contador backed up the hardest Giro in 20 odd years with a 5th at the Tour. Context...use your brain. Oh and fine job insulting the French. Voeckler thoroughly deserved his 4th...heck he'd have come 3rd if he didn't goof up on the Alpe d'Huez stage. ACtually his effort is equal with Wiggins best. You've got nothing else superior (Vuelta third doesn't count against that opposition). Oh and he went out held yellow for how long? Equal on paper. Wiggins hasn't shown he's superior, yet I don't hear French fans screaming Rolland or Voeckler will win the Tour...oh but of course, the Poms will scream Wiggins is a dead cert. :rolleyes:

Fantastic, you can use hindsight like the rest of us! At the time, not such a bad call. Wiggins had placed 4th at the Tour before, and they were just going to place all their eggs in a basket that had barely even placed at a major race before?


Deflection. Typical of a pom or someone supporting a Brit. Not hindsight, common sense. People said it here on the forum as the Vuelta unfolded. If the Wiggins band camp pulled their heads out of their arses this would have been glaringly obvious as it unfolded. He wasn't proven. Worse, they were so convinced Wiggins was the numero uno, they didn't know one of their own was superior. All that training, all the numbers and yet they didn't know. If their focus was on all riders, not just Wiggins, they'd have known. That's my point. Linear thinking. No alternative. Sure at last years Tour they had alternatives who could stage hunt. Is that good enough this year though whilst sprouting such grand aspirations of winning the biggest GT in the world? Yeah of course it is.:rolleyes:

Has anything changed that would convince me they've learnt from their mistakes? Nope. So it is a possibility of happening again. Add that up today and what do you get? A team who are that inept! Great confidence booster dude. That's Pommie patriotism running rampant and unchecked.

Rigoberto Uran is a better climbing domestique than Garmin offer. Otherwise this is just a load of waffle. Brits being more arrogant than Russians. Lovely generalisation, but I'm not sure what basis or relevance it has. Little bit of a jibe about an acrimonious transfer, again, just waffle padding out your posts.


Wow, I have to explain it all again for you. One rider. One rider does not equate to a climbing juggernaut team of domestiques. Maybe if his name were Franck Schleck you'd have a point. Sure you mention Uran, he is good, but it's about quantity here. Overall climbing abilities of all Garmin riders is superior. Vande Velde, Hesjedal, Millar and whoever else they decide to pack on the team, is greater than Uran, Porte and Rogers. Porte and Rogers will be dropped quite early. They keep up, the GC riders are going easy. Oh and this is from an Aussie...they're meh. Garmins overall climbing pedigree is higher. That's the pommie arrogance I was talking about. What's that, you don't agree? From the horses mouth champ. Wiggins himself. Surely you remember his Wigan vs Man Utd parting jibe directed at a team that flogged themselves so he could upgrade his pay packet?

Nah probably not. That's essentially all Wigans is about. Dah money!!! Doesn't matter if he doesn't deliver, he's got a contract that was worth triple what Cavendish's HTC contract was worth! That's the real joke. One rider who ******ed up all of 2010 was being paid triple what the rider with the most seasonal wins was earning...there is perspective for you.

So now you can see into the future. You're criticising Sky for tactical failures they haven't even made yet. Maybe it's time to take a few breaths and stop thinking about Wiggins for a few days.


Now you're telling me what I can do! How prophetic of you. Sky are criticised for tactical failures they have made and failed to either acknowledge or rectify. What does that tell you about their thinking and psyche? Like you they are in for a nasty surprise. Failures that can easily manifest again. When Cadel Evans had 'team issues' did he keep committing them? Yes, then he learnt his mistake, acknowledged it, fixed them and won the Tour de France. If Sky don't address the issues they have, Wigans won't even make the podium. The same line of thinking that resulted in last years Vuelta flop cannot be used to solve the underlying problem. As far as one can tell, Sky don't even think there was an issue...yet Wigans is a favourite to win a harder GT against vastly superior opponents!!! :eek:
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14 May 2012 04:17

Gesink is mentioned much too often... He has so much still to prove.

Regarding Wiggins, he absolutely can win the Tour 2012, no doubt about that. I´d be surprised if Evans did it two years in a row, but he knows how to win it now.

My hopes are on Menchov. Menchov in 2010´s shape against Wiggins in top shape would be really tight.

Don´t see A. Schleck as contender for the overall win in 2012´s Tour. Maybe if he shows his legs of 2010, then maybe... My main hope is that it´s decided on the road, not like last year, when Wiggo crashed out early.

One time has to be the first time. Contador´s first was 2007, Basso´s 2006, Sastre´s 2008, Valverde´s 2009, Schleck´s 2010, Nibali´s 2010, Evans´s 2011, Cobo´s 2011, Scarponi´s 2011. Don´t see any reason why Wiggins should miss out on that list and fail, just because he´s had a track background for a long time.

Winning Paris-Nice and Romandie in addition to Top4 in the Tour and podium in the Vuelta already makes him one of the greats in road cycling, so the Tour win is absolutely in reach.

Sky aren´t tactically better or worse than others, and Wiggins has lots of experience and a huge load of professionalism. It looks good for him. Hope Menchov is doing well in the Sierra these weeks, and can train like he has to, then there´ll be nice battles in July... Like it much more than the usual LA-Ullrich-Basso-Beloki stuff we used to see few years ago.
And though I like him, I prefer watching races without Contador, because he´s the only real "next Lance" in terms of domination. Menchov for Tour and Contador for Vuelta, I hope.
RHRH19861986
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14 May 2012 04:20

airstream wrote:I don't understand you. The fact that Nibali won the Vuelta by means of incredible luck and the Giro podiums give him global mental priority or what? Wiggins was the 4th in the Tour riding this as a debutant in GC fight and 3rd in the Vuelta. That's more than enough. In addition, we don't even have evidence to consider Nibali a better climber. Because he showed himself very inconsistently in that line last year. Remembering his idiotic attack on the descent from Giau, oh.. To what extent one's good is measured by how one's good NOW. It is a base of any estimation. Previous merits (Menchov and Valverde) can be only a bit of help.


Nibali has a GT and podiums from the hardest two Giros in memory. He's done more than enough to warrant inclusion into a potential favourite list ahead of Wiggins. "More than enough." For you, not for me. Because I saw how poorly Wiggins rode in 2010. Yes he's improved, so had Nibali. Add in Nibali is a risk taker. Just like the above reply I made. I was questioned about Contadors positioning in last years Tour and it's relation to Voeckler. Nibali and Voeckler are prepared to go out and make a move to jump up the GC ladder. Is Wiggins? I surely haven't seen it.

Andy wouldn't have been dropped on that descent whatsoever in case he had held on with them uphill. And I'm 100% certain Nibali will gain nothing on downhills in the Tour. In order to do it, he needs a climbing reserve, he obviously doesnt have it and will suffer.


You don't need a climbing reserve. You simply need a descent and a number of riders to reach the ascent at a similar time. Then if someone wishes to make a slight move, if you can't keep up, you lose time. Granted it may not be a lot, but time is time. Happened last year in both the Tour and Giro, where riders did make moves. As I pointed out, you don't need to make a lot of time. What is it with people thinking you need huge colossal moves to win? A bit of time here, a bit there whilst remaining consistent overall, that's how you podium and ultimately win. Worse, if you rely on a huge ball busting move, like Andy Schleck last year, you ultimately can come up short. But that's Schleck's problem. Look at how Menchov and Evans won their GT's, also look at Valverde. Now look at Nibali. It's about overall consistency. That's the deficit I am mentioning with Wiggins.

@Greenedge. Sky do have Froome as a climing domestique. So he complements Uran or can be the go to guy if Wiggins fails. I forgot Garmin have Tommy D, so ultimately they cancel one another out. Looking at the numbers on paper, Garmin have 5 top ten performances at the Tour amongst their riders and a number of top 20 rides, Sky have 1 top ten performance. Just the single solitary performance by Wiggins three years ago. Ironically riding for Garmin. Garmin are a better team for climbing. Wiggins would be much better protected if he still rode for Garmin. Heck, one could argue he may not even be the protected rider for GC. Now there is some food for thought. I know which team has the experience. Gosh wouldn't it be grand if Tommy D and Ryder beat Wiggins?:p
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14 May 2012 04:22

Caruut wrote:You are absolutely unreadable. Learn to write concisely.


Just found that. Get over yourself you whining pom. Enjoying the Euro right now? How about the miserable weather? You've got plenty of things to decorate your life with misery than jumping on here and adopting the grammar nazi monicker. People type quickly, deal with it. Again, another fanboy deflecting...come at me bro:cool:
User avatar Galic Ho
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14 May 2012 07:30

Galic Ho wrote:Nibali has a GT and podiums from the hardest two Giros in memory. He's done more than enough to warrant inclusion into a potential favourite list ahead of Wiggins. "More than enough." For you, not for me. Because I saw how poorly Wiggins rode in 2010. Yes he's improved, so had Nibali. Add in Nibali is a risk taker. Just like the above reply I made. I was questioned about Contadors positioning in last years Tour and it's relation to Voeckler. Nibali and Voeckler are prepared to go out and make a move to jump up the GC ladder. Is Wiggins? I surely haven't seen it.

It changes nothing. It is only circumstance rather than condition that let him get third twice. Whom did he beat? In 2010 he got ahead Scarponi mostly for account of TTT while being worse than Michele on the climbs. In 2011 - he beat Gadret lol. There are always the opponents of higher level in the Tour. And what did Nibali extract due to his ability to take a risk in GT's? Ah. You are already equating Voeckler to Nibali. :) Well, I'm afraid you will see this in a decisive manner. I think all the arguments against Wiggo sort of he'll inevitably crack on some multi-climbing stage are a bit far-fetched. Yeah, he is doomed to lose little by little, possibly can give away up to 1'30-2min on say Peyragudes. But I don't see him missing podium. So does Andy.
User avatar airstream
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14 May 2012 09:57

Galic Ho wrote:Wow, I have to explain it all again for you. One rider. One rider does not equate to a climbing juggernaut team of domestiques. Maybe if his name were Franck Schleck you'd have a point. Sure you mention Uran, he is good, but it's about quantity here. Overall climbing abilities of all Garmin riders is superior. Vande Velde, Hesjedal, Millar and whoever else they decide to pack on the team, is greater than Uran, Porte and Rogers. Porte and Rogers will be dropped quite early. They keep up, the GC riders are going easy. Oh and this is from an Aussie...they're meh. Garmins overall climbing pedigree is higher.
Failures that can easily manifest again. When Cadel Evans had 'team issues' did he keep committing them? Yes, then he learnt his mistake, acknowledged it, fixed them and won the Tour de France. If Sky don't address the issues they have, Wigans won't even make the podium. The same line of thinking that resulted in last years Vuelta flop cannot be used to solve the underlying problem. As far as one can tell, Sky don't even think there was an issue...yet Wigans is a favourite to win a harder GT against vastly superior opponents!!! :eek:


Yes but this year at Sky no one shall be stronger than Wiggins at the TDF. Besides they will probably have learnt from the Vuelta ( though they did screw up there ) so i see your point. However I would not say Wiggins has team issues ( even though the diverting of men to help Cav could count as one ).

Millar is not the climber he used to be. Hesjedal will not go to the TDF after going for the Giro win. Dan Marin is good however, Le Mevel and Tommy D have also been good. Overall Uran, Porte, Rogers and Froome will also do more work for Wiggins than Garmin would for CVV ( so if riders did attack they would ride at a lower tempo or melt away after previously having done work. Porte and Rogers are fine ( Algarve and TOC wins- high placings at GT's each ) show they can go well and provide support. No one is also claiming Sky is a climbing juggernaut but they also have Nordhaug, Knees, Pate, Henao, Zandio along with the others mentioned so they are ok.

I know that Wiggins was also not great at the Vuelta last year ( not winning against a weak field ) but he had crashed at the TDF which probably impacted him in the final week.
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

The Grand Boucle wasn't just Europe's for the taking.

Quote:VAE
"Has Porte ever dropped Nibali in any mountain?"
D&C "He will soon..."
greenedge
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14 May 2012 10:08

RHRH19861986 wrote:Winning Paris-Nice and Romandie in addition to Top4 in the Tour and podium in the Vuelta already makes him one of the greats in road cycling, so the Tour win is absolutely in reach.


He would not count as a great of the sport unless if he wins the TDF. At the moment he is a modern great but would not be regarded as a great in future if he has not won the TDF.

I think his track exploits should also be considered.
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

The Grand Boucle wasn't just Europe's for the taking.

Quote:VAE
"Has Porte ever dropped Nibali in any mountain?"
D&C "He will soon..."
greenedge
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14 May 2012 10:14

Galic Ho wrote:@Greenedge. Sky do have Froome as a climing domestique. So he complements Uran or can be the go to guy if Wiggins fails. I forgot Garmin have Tommy D, so ultimately they cancel one another out. Looking at the numbers on paper, Garmin have 5 top ten performances at the Tour amongst their riders and a number of top 20 rides, Sky have 1 top ten performance. Just the single solitary performance by Wiggins three years ago. Ironically riding for Garmin. Garmin are a better team for climbing. Wiggins would be much better protected if he still rode for Garmin. Heck, one could argue he may not even be the protected rider for GC. Now there is some food for thought. I know which team has the experience. Gosh wouldn't it be grand if Tommy D and Ryder beat Wiggins?:p


That is hypothetical. Based on that TDF 2009 performance i am sure hw ould be. It's not as if CVV has gone great and Hesjedal will probably only podium a GT as his greatest accomplishment GT wise.

I think Wiggins is fine at Sky protection wise- otherwise he would have been losing quite a few of the races he has been at. Porte at P-N/ TOR was good for Wiggins and Wiggins won.
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

The Grand Boucle wasn't just Europe's for the taking.

Quote:VAE
"Has Porte ever dropped Nibali in any mountain?"
D&C "He will soon..."
greenedge
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14 May 2012 10:19

airstream wrote:I don't understand you. The fact that Nibali won the Vuelta by means of incredible luck and the Giro podiums give him global mental priority or what? Wiggins was the 4th in the Tour riding this as a debutant in GC fight and 3rd in the Vuelta. That's more than enough. In addition, we don't even have evidence to consider Nibali a better climber. Because he showed himself very inconsistently in that line last year.

Don't forget how young Nibali was in 09. Also Nibali is still younger than Wiggins.

I honestly think Nibali is a much better climber than Wiggins. Wiggins will never do a mountain solo whereas Nibali did one at Green Mountain this year/ has probably done more. At T-A this year Wiggins would not have won, because it would have been too steep for him. P-N/ TOR had no real major climbs ( except for Mende/ Eze ).
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

The Grand Boucle wasn't just Europe's for the taking.

Quote:VAE
"Has Porte ever dropped Nibali in any mountain?"
D&C "He will soon..."
greenedge
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14 May 2012 10:49

greenedge wrote:That is hypothetical. Based on that TDF 2009 performance i am sure hw ould be. It's not as if CVV has gone great and Hesjedal will probably only podium a GT as his greatest accomplishment GT wise.

I think Wiggins is fine at Sky protection wise- otherwise he would have been losing quite a few of the races he has been at. Porte at P-N/ TOR was good for Wiggins and Wiggins won.


It wasn't only Porte though ;) Rogers and Froome and the whole team helped Wiggo at TOR. Wiggo will be alright and wil be well protected, most definitely I agree about that.
Gloin22
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14 May 2012 10:51

greenedge wrote:Don't forget how young Nibali was in 09. Also Nibali is still younger than Wiggins.

I honestly think Nibali is a much better climber than Wiggins. Wiggins will never do a mountain solo whereas Nibali did one at Green Mountain this year/ has probably done more. At T-A this year Wiggins would not have won, because it would have been too steep for him. P-N/ TOR had no real major climbs ( except for Mende/ Eze ).


In the 2009 Tour they were quite equal, we were looking into this situation. Yes, Wiggins cracked partially in Le Grand Bornard stage, but he fought for the podium and pulled Nibali and Armtrong a half of Col du Romme and Colombier whereas Vincenzo was still considered as a very young rider who learnt his capacities in the race and didn't take an initiative. I agree with your remark regarding Nibali's climbing strength, but a better climber in general (in off-season, in sort of torn-off story) and a better climber in terms of the Tour (I'm refering this to the perfomance at Green Mountain) are two different things. Otherwise we would come to the conclusion that Purito Rodriguez is a stronger climber than Andy Schleck. At that, a climber always has to prove his superiority over others by attacking. Nibali will have problems with that, again, considering his defensive manner in GT's.
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14 May 2012 11:28

The Silent Assassin will remain silent in this years journey through France. As it will be difficult to animate the race from the grupetto...
brilleaben
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15 May 2012 09:41

Gloin22 wrote:It wasn't only Porte though ;) Rogers and Froome and the whole team helped Wiggo at TOR. Wiggo will be alright and wil be well protected, most definitely I agree about that.


True sorry but i had been saying that Sky had been supporting in there posts.

Froome was not great too( he'd just recovered ).
I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong

The Grand Boucle wasn't just Europe's for the taking.

Quote:VAE
"Has Porte ever dropped Nibali in any mountain?"
D&C "He will soon..."
greenedge
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15 May 2012 23:52

airstream wrote: Nibali will have problems with that, again, considering his defensive manner in GT's.


This will change. This will change.
Moser fanboy.

Libertine Seguros wrote:Colombia is a world of totally alien wonder, a bit like putting the Amish in the control room at NASA.
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16 May 2012 11:00

gustienordic wrote:This will change. This will change.


Not in the Tour. Giro and Vuelta are much better platforms for mastering attacks on the climbs. ;) Well, ok, in point of fact, it can be a depthless debate boiling down to comparison of the Tour and other GT's. As far as I understand, many people assume Nibali can be the second climber in the race.
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14 Jun 2012 01:22

Not looking good for menchov if he does have tendinitis...
SilentAssassin
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14 Jun 2012 01:37

SilentAssassin wrote:Both strong veteran riders, with Menchov probably the greatest all around cyclist to ever live has his best chance for a Tour win. If he is ever going to win the tour, it will be this year, and it will complete his rider portfolio, winning all Grand Tours.

Only one man truly stands in Menchov's way, and that's Cadel Evans.

These two titans are ambassadors to the sport. Living legends in their own right on the pedals.

I would favor Menchov however overall. If he can finally be free of bad luck in this tour, I think he can climb better than Cadel, and he can beat Cadel in the time trial. But Menchov being free from bad luck is like a rattle snake without his rattle...probably not likely.

I think we might see a rivalry between these two. I think Cadel and Menchov are head and shoulders above everyone else barring Andy some how musters up great time trials, or has a legendary showing in the mountains.


Say what???

Here's what will happen in the TDF with Menchov - nothing. And in a few years when he retires he won't be remembered.
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