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Doping according to some

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

02 Jul 2009 14:05

Alpe d'Huez wrote:I agree with all you say. You and I feel the same. But I do think there is something to hope for. You can look to riders that speak out, and riders that sign on to groups like BikePure. Yes, we've been let down in the past about people that talk the talk then get busted (Kohl comes to mind), but by continuing to pressure the riders, and teams, it slowly helps turn the tide, and gives the impression that it's good to not dope, even if you don't gain many results. And it's good to speak out against doping, as there will be a lot of fans that will still support you for it.

It might be good to speak out against doping in order to win the support of fans, but, as long as one can dope undetected, to actually cease doping is never going to be good for a cyclist's career, nor to win fan support.

Since new performance enhancing substances and techniques are always going to be created and will exist for a considerable time before the testers even discover them, much less have tests developed for them, there is no end to this. Why are you hopeful? Because every few months they catch someone who is doing something that can finally be detected? That gives you something to hope for? Really?
User avatar Ninety5rpm
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02 Jul 2009 15:00

nobody wrote:Cyclismag evaluates power on climb with elevation, time, ratio and a weight equal for all riders of 78kg (bike included).
So, it's possible to have charts like this where we can detect the arrival of EPO inside peloton!
Image

1997: hct limit of 50%


rolfrae wrote:When did the EPO test come in?

EPO test was introduced in 2001 I believe. 2003 kicks up again for blood doping maybe?
User avatar Escarabajo
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02 Jul 2009 16:08

> Until one has done some serious cycling reading

OMG! I didn't spell "peloton" just right in a post I whipped out! No need to get hostile or insulting about it.

That said, as far as I know, all of us on this forum are "ignorant" about the doping situation. Unless you're getting first hand information, it's all just speculation, or in technical, serious cycling terms, "talking out you ***" :-) All we know is who gets caught for stuff.

BTW, I do my "serious cycling reading" in Italian, not French, so I'm more used to "plotone", or simply "il gruppo".
davidw
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02 Jul 2009 16:16

davidw wrote:> Until one has done some serious cycling reading

OMG! I didn't spell "peloton" just right in a post I whipped out!

That said, as far as I know, all of us on this forum are "ignorant" about the doping situation. Unless you're getting first hand information, it's all just speculation.


Hi I'm David and I don't like to talk about doping but I like to whine about people that do and thereby end up talking about it myself. There there David, you're not very smart but it will be okay.
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02 Jul 2009 16:27

BikeCentric wrote:Hi I'm David and I don't like to talk about doping but I like to whine about people that do and thereby end up talking about it myself. There there David, you're not very smart but it will be okay.


Oooh, "not very smart"! Well... nothing to say to that, I guess you got me with your witty repartee. No... wait, I have one: you big doody head! So there!

Sheez...
davidw
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02 Jul 2009 17:24

davidw wrote:> Until one has done some serious cycling reading

OMG! I didn't spell "peloton" just right in a post I whipped out! No need to get hostile or insulting about it.

That said, as far as I know, all of us on this forum are "ignorant" about the doping situation. Unless you're getting first hand information, it's all just speculation, or in technical, serious cycling terms, "talking out you ***" :-) All we know is who gets caught for stuff.

BTW, I do my "serious cycling reading" in Italian, not French, so I'm more used to "plotone", or simply "il gruppo".

Relax, man. Whether the correlation actually applies in your particular case is entirely beside the point - which was meant to be humorous. No need to take it so seriously!

The notion that it's either "firsthand information" or "all just speculation" is a false dichotomy. Yeah, we're all ignorant about doping in cycling, and whether OJ did it, because we lack firsthand information. :rolleyes:
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02 Jul 2009 17:40

nobody wrote:Image


It's obvious that in 1994 they started training harder!
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02 Jul 2009 18:20

davidw wrote:Oooh, "not very smart"! Well... nothing to say to that, I guess you got me with your witty repartee. No... wait, I have one: you big doody head! So there!

Sheez...


Look David, obviously I'm kind of a dic*, but the point I'm trying to make is that you're wasting your time by attacking your fellow fans for talking about doping. They aren't the problem, they didn't cause the problem, and they aren't going to help the problem by ignoring it and hoping it goes away.
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02 Jul 2009 18:34

Ninety5rpm wrote:Why are you hopeful? Because every few months they catch someone who is doing something that can finally be detected? That gives you something to hope for? Really?

Didn't say I thought this would magically make the entire sport whistle clean. It never will, ever. But it might make it cleaner, and help discourage doping. What's the other choice, just throw up your arms like Hein Verbruggen and accept doping? Only watch golf (wait, those guys use steroids)? I think Bike put it well, below:

BikeCentric wrote:(The fans) aren't the problem, they didn't cause the problem, and they aren't going to help the problem by ignoring it and hoping it goes away.
User avatar Alpe d'Huez
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02 Jul 2009 18:39

BikeCentric wrote:Look David, obviously I'm kind of a dic*, but the point I'm trying to make is that you're wasting your time by attacking your fellow fans for talking about doping. They aren't the problem, they didn't cause the problem, and they aren't going to help the problem by ignoring it and hoping it goes away.


I am a dicl< too, and I agree with everything else also.

+1
Thoughtforfood
 

02 Jul 2009 20:08

Alpe d'Huez wrote:Didn't say I thought this would magically make the entire sport whistle clean. It never will, ever. But it might make it cleaner, and help discourage doping. What's the other choice, just throw up your arms like Hein Verbruggen and accept doping? Only watch golf (wait, those guys use steroids)? I think Bike put it well, below:

The choices are necessarily:

1) Do something effective (beyond what is already being done).
2) Do something ineffective.
3) Do nothing (beyond what is already being done).

I see no advantage in (2) over (3), do you? Further, since doing something always has a cost as compared to doing nothing, (3) is almost always preferable to (2).

So, yeah, since we can't come up with anything in the (1) category, the best that can be done is (drum roll) nothing.
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02 Jul 2009 20:18

Mr.DNA wrote:It's obvious that in 1994 they started training harder!


:D :D :cool:
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02 Jul 2009 21:22

Alpe d'Huez wrote:Didn't say I thought this would magically make the entire sport whistle clean. It never will, ever. But it might make it cleaner, and help discourage doping. What's the other choice, just throw up your arms like Hein Verbruggen and accept doping? Only watch golf (wait, those guys use steroids)? I think Bike put it well, below:


I'm not completely opposed to discussing this stuff, but the 'witch hunt' mentality strikes me as not all that productive...

V: What makes you think she is a witch?
P2: Well, she turned me into a newt!
V: A newt?!
(P2 pause & look around)
P2: I got better.
(pause)
P3: Burn her anyway! (burn her burn her burn!)
(king walks in)
V: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
P1: Are there? Well then tell us! (tell us)
V: Tell me... what do you do with witches?
P3: Burn'em! Burn them up! (burn burn burn)
V: What do you burn apart from witches?
P1: More witches! (P2 nudge P1)
(pause)
P3: Wood!
V: So, why do witches burn?
(long pause)
P2: Cuz they're made of... wood?

If you want to promote fighting it, you have to look at the incentives. Here's an economist looking at doping in baseball:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/how-do-we-get-baseball-players-to-stop-doping/

Basically, she's saying that currently, if you do, the worst that can happen is that you end up more or less as you would have been had you never doped. The best that can happen is that you're a whole lot better off. Naturally it's not quite so simple, but looking at the positives and negatives and making them tip in favor of 'no' is what needs to happen.

All in all, though, it ends up being a horse that gets beaten, killed, stabbed, shot, and backed over numerous times by various motor vehicles.
davidw
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02 Jul 2009 21:24

davidw wrote:I'm not completely opposed to discussing this stuff, but the 'witch hunt' mentality strikes me as not all that productive...

V: What makes you think she is a witch?
P2: Well, she turned me into a newt!
V: A newt?!
(P2 pause & look around)
P2: I got better.
(pause)
P3: Burn her anyway! (burn her burn her burn!)
(king walks in)
V: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
P1: Are there? Well then tell us! (tell us)
V: Tell me... what do you do with witches?
P3: Burn'em! Burn them up! (burn burn burn)
V: What do you burn apart from witches?
P1: More witches! (P2 nudge P1)
(pause)
P3: Wood!
V: So, why do witches burn?
(long pause)
P2: Cuz they're made of... wood?

If you want to promote fighting it, you have to look at the incentives. Here's an economist looking at doping in baseball:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/01/how-do-we-get-baseball-players-to-stop-doping/

Basically, she's saying that currently, if you do, the worst that can happen is that you end up more or less as you would have been had you never doped. The best that can happen is that you're a whole lot better off. Naturally it's not quite so simple, but looking at the positives and negatives and making them tip in favor of 'no' is what needs to happen.

All in all, though, it ends up being a horse that gets beaten, killed, stabbed, shot, and backed over numerous times by various motor vehicles.


I''l take a dead horse over an ostrich any day.
Thoughtforfood
 

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