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Alberto Contador Discussion Thread

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15 Jun 2013 08:59

nick101 wrote:2011 was his best climbing so far and he isn't climbing much worse. he put out 1700VAM on long climbs and is currently putting out the same so hasn't really gotten better, others have just gotten worse. there are numerous riders that could beat froome if they were peaking but they haven't. evans, andy and contador all could. as for andy not being great I disagree with that as he set the third fastest time on the zoncolan so that surely counts for something plus his attacks on the tourmalet and izoard were certainly some of the most exciting in recent years.i never said contador can climb better than pantani or tt better than cancellara. contador has proven on verbier he can climb better than pantani on anything less than 20 mintues based on raw data. a riders percentage is exponential i.e. it would be easier to go from 70% to 80% than 80% to 90%.


Andy's career does have some spurious one offs a single run up Zoncolan or one attack on one mountain stage of the Tour does not make him great though the 2011 Galibier stage was superb (more of that kind of stuff I might like the guy)
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15 Jun 2013 09:00

airstream wrote:Sirius cat calm down. Though, I can not help wondering why you continue to appeal to such dumb and uninformed forum member like me.


Because you're there spouting your nonsense...it's all it takes.
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15 Jun 2013 09:03

Siriuscat wrote:Andy's career does have some spurious one offs a single run up Zoncolan or one attack on one mountain stage of the Tour does not make him great though the 2011 Galibier stage was superb (more of that kind of stuff I might like the guy)


based on that logic pantani is not the greatest climber who ever lived?? his alpe d'huez times are what defines him as a rider. as for whether froome is better - he will certainly beat them if they cannot replicate their climbing abilities at previous peaks but raw data suggests when peaking froome wouldn't beat schleck or contador also peaking. unless of course froome can suddenly gain pantani legs. if I were to compare climbing speed and watt/kg to previous peaks then i could easily determine whether they were off form or not
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15 Jun 2013 09:04

airstream wrote:Sirius cat calm down. Though, I can not help wondering why you continue to appeal to such dumb and uninformed forum member like me.


Because you're there spouting your nonsense....it's all it takes!!

how are you gonna to find out whether froome is better than them or they are off form, if froome wins the race?


Finally a statement I can agree with. If Froome proves the strongest in the tour then it's not possible to know whether he's better or not, only stronger.
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15 Jun 2013 09:06

Im not fully aware how this wattage output is meassured. But I guess, the easiser the stage is the better wattage output, is this correct? I have hard to belive that wattage output actually can be used as a exact tool to calculate a riders status. I certainly hope it aint, because then the sport would be extremly boring.

i never said contador can climb better than pantani or tt better than cancellara.

You said Froome had to it to beat a Contador in form, for that to be possible I pressume Contador at least have to acheive one of these things.

contador has proven on verbier he can climb better than pantani

As I argud, i dont see this as a proof Contador climeb better than Pantani would have.
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15 Jun 2013 09:08

HCl+HN03 wrote:Im not fully aware how this wattage output is meassured. But I guess, the easiser the stage is the better wattage output, is this correct? I have hard to belive that wattage output actually can be used as a exact tool to calculate a riders status. I certainly hope it aint, because then the sport would be extremly boring.


You said Froome had to it to beat a Contador in form, for that to be possible I pressume Contador at least have to acheive one of these things.


As I argud, i dont see this as a proof Contador climeb better than Pantani would have.


It goes without saying that Pantani was a far superior climber to Contador. A ton of people where in those days, it's useless to compare to the 90's.

Besides, a more accurate comparison for the current situation is that if you want to beat Contador you have to be a better climber than Valverde and Rodriguez, which I think Froome is.
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15 Jun 2013 09:10

nick101 wrote:based on that logic pantani is not the greatest climber who ever lived?? his alpe d'huez times are what defines him as a rider


Correct he's not, incredible rider as he was there are others equally as good if not better; Charly Gaul, lucien van Impe, Merckx, Coppi, Bartali, Jose Maria Jiminez, bahamontes, Massignan..... need I go on.

Pantani is one of my favourite riders of all time and a great climber but he only ever won a single Mountains Classification, other won this competition WHILST winning GC's.

In Contador terms...it's his thread; he is a great climber but more so he is a truly great GC rider, that takes more than climbing
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15 Jun 2013 09:15

well pantani attacks from the foot of a climb and didn't slow down at all and he kept surging. pantani set the fastest alpe d'huez climb in comparison to other riders you have mentioned. contador attacks further up but on verbier managed to put out a much higher climbing ascent rate than pantani ever achieved. froome isn't better than climber than rodriguez or valverde - based on the fact he usually attacks at the top of a climb then both would beat him as their sprint is far superior to froomes. when I was saying that froome would have to climb like pantani I was referring to the fact that contador essentially out climbed pantani on verbier. and froome is being illustrated as able to gain minutes on contador in the tour I was merely saying how he would have to ride in order to achieve that and the fact that people are saying he is VERY unfit (70-80%). the HARDER the stage the HIGHER the wattage output. riders put out a higher wattage on a 10% climb than a 6% climb. as for watt/kg measurement - it can be calculated by dividing the VAM (verticle metres ascended per hour) by a specific constant of proportionality relating to the particular climb. this constant is usually between 250 to 350 depending on the climb
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15 Jun 2013 09:21

nick101 wrote:well pantani attacks from the foot of a climb and didn't slow down at all and he kept surging. pantani set the fastest alpe d'huez climb in comparison to other riders you have mentioned. contador attacks further up but on verbier managed to put out a much higher climbing ascent rate than pantani ever achieved. froome isn't better than rodriguez - based on the fact he usually attacks at the top of a climb then rodriguez would beat him as his sprint is far superior to froomes. when I was saying that froome would have to climb like pantani I was referring to the fact that contador essentially out climbed pantani on verbier. and froome is being illustrated as able to gain minutes on contador in the tour I was merely saying how he would have to ride in order to achieve that and the fact that people are saying he is VERY unfit (70-80%)


Please stop talking nonsense. Pantani could have dropped Contador on any mountain wherever he wanted. That's no slight to Contador, it's just a sign of the times they rode in. VAM is meaningless, Pantani produced W/KG on long climbs that nobody in the current peloton can even dream of.
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15 Jun 2013 09:27

contador got close with his 7w/kg pantani managed 7.3w/kg. so contador did get quite close actually. I totally agree that contador wouldn't be strong enough to keep up and maintain such a high wattage if pantani were to attack from the foot of alpe d'huez and contador was racing against pantani
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15 Jun 2013 09:31

nick101 wrote:contador got close with his 7w/kg pantani managed 7.3w/kg. so contador did get quite close actually. I totally agree that contador wouldn't be strong enough to keep up and maintain such a high wattage if pantani were to attack from the foot of alpe d'huez and contador was racing against pantani


Not, it's not quite close. Pantani did 7.25w/kg on a 35 minute climb, Contador didn't even reach that on a 20 minute climb (where even Andy Schleck reached 6.8 w/kg, guess he is pretty close to Pantani as well). Pantani in top shape would have gained 3 to 4 minutes on the Alpe and Ventoux alone. There is no comparison, it's just silly to even suggest it.
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15 Jun 2013 09:35

I was talking about the fact that contador got close to the record on any climb (verbier is cat 1). pantani seemed to be suited to longer climbs than verbier as far as I can tell, that were more difficult. I already said pantani would out easily climb them on a climb like the alpe as holding such a high wattage for 30+ minutes isn't possible for either of them
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15 Jun 2013 09:51

LaFlorecita wrote:Am I too "greedy" once again :rolleyes:

And stop calling me fleur. You're not a friend nor do I like you so call me by my username.


eh!! fyefie all riled up?:D
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15 Jun 2013 11:09

LaFlorecita wrote:You don't agree he is in bad shape this year? Because you don't think there should be excuses? You think we should only look at the results and not at the circumstances?

If so, lol, Alberto will lose over 12 minutes to Froome because he lost over 4 in Dauphiné. We shouldn't look at the circumstances and try to make excuses. Lol.

If Froome beats Alberto this year and it is clear Alberto isn't near his best, I won't hail Froome as the best GC rider of this generation. Period. Call that excuses, I call it common sense.


I don't call it commonsense to hail Froome as the best rider of his generation when he has not won a GT yet. Only mad people would suggest that, even if he wins the Tour. I would not read too much into the Dauphine. To me Contador looked like he was training apart from the TT where he was inexplicably bad and the sinus issue may have had something to do with it and on the first mountain stage which Froome won, Contador tested the waters and was beaten fair and square. after that he was just helping Mick Rogers hold his podium place. If Contador is beaten in the Tour and admits that he was not ill or injured well we have to assume he was beaten by a better rider at the time. It's funny that often when riders are interviewed they say that they did not have the legs or that others were too good for them, not many admit to losing because of injury or illness. The fans are completely different and often see things that even the riders say are not true. Contador has not had any serious illness or falls or injuries since he won the Vuelta so if he he is beaten in the Tour then in my eyes he has been fairly beaten. Does not matter whether people think he is not at his best or past his best that is irrelevant. It's all about what happens in the three weeks. If Contador can win a difficult Vuelta on a limited preparation he should be good in the Tour unless there is a serious reason for it which we have not heard about so far.
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15 Jun 2013 11:27

pretty much agree with you there about froome, and contador at the dauphine. froome would probably have beaten contador on that stage regardless of his form. if contador doesn't have the legs then generally he doesn't deserve to win unless he can come up with a genius tactic like sastre or schleck have :D
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15 Jun 2013 11:49

movingtarget wrote:I don't call it commonsense to hail Froome as the best rider of his generation when he has not won a GT yet. Only mad people would suggest that, even if he wins the Tour. I would not read too much into the Dauphine. To me Contador looked like he was training apart from the TT where he was inexplicably bad and the sinus issue may have had something to do with it and on the first mountain stage which Froome won, Contador tested the waters and was beaten fair and square. after that he was just helping Mick Rogers hold his podium place. If Contador is beaten in the Tour and admits that he was not ill or injured well we have to assume he was beaten by a better rider at the time. It's funny that often when riders are interviewed they say that they did not have the legs or that others were too good for them, not many admit to losing because of injury or illness. The fans are completely different and often see things that even the riders say are not true. Contador has not had any serious illness or falls or injuries since he won the Vuelta so if he he is beaten in the Tour then in my eyes he has been fairly beaten. Does not matter whether people think he is not at his best or past his best that is irrelevant. It's all about what happens in the three weeks. If Contador can win a difficult Vuelta on a limited preparation he should be good in the Tour unless there is a serious reason for it which we have not heard about so far.


I disagree
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15 Jun 2013 11:50

Zam_Olyas wrote:eh!! fyefie all riled up?:D


yea man :D zam you are by far my favorite Alberto hater:D
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15 Jun 2013 11:56

disagree with what?
nick101
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15 Jun 2013 12:11

LaFlorecita wrote:yea man :D zam you are by far my favorite Alberto hater:D


That is because i am a reasonable guy, :D i am quite reasonable with riders even with Ivan The Great...scratch that no i am not...i am not reasonable to alot of garmin riders..sins of the father thing as i don't like Mr. Vaughters. :p
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15 Jun 2013 12:46

Nick101, you´re like an anti/airstream, exept his posts have better arguments and are less tiring to read.
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