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JV talks, sort of

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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17 Mar 2013 23:29

blackcat wrote:to be fair, this could mean "never had a conversation about the clinic with a person I know".


Or it could have just been a completely flippant statement like many in the clinic, not meant to be taken seriously.
peterst6906
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17 Mar 2013 23:34

Granville57 wrote:1,500,000 divided by "12" = 125,000

Damn, that's a lot of mouse clicks! :eek:

monetise that from media ads.

this why benson is writing on transfusions on the main page. and p'raps why they give Clinic subforum a wide berth and not too great a censoring going on. (calling out to Susan where r u?)

tipping point was reached where Trek et al could no longer deny cos it was not good for business. and the tension dissolved about shooting the messenger.

manifestation of Brodeal's post
BroDeal wrote:...

...snip...

...
An unrelated observation I have is that the sport through the UCI has created a situation that may be more sordid than the free-for-all doping that preceeded it. It appears to me that the UCI has used its power to scapegoat a few riders as a means to goad the others into changing their behavior. All law enforcement has some element of this, but a fair system strives to apply the laws evenly and punishment with proportional measure to the crime committed, taking into account how extraordinary the convicted's behavior was. Cycling, on the other hand, has utterly destroyed people like Landis and Ricco for doing no more than what their colleagues were doing.

To make the situation sleazier, the riders who are left publicly heap scorn on the Landises and the Riccos even though the only difference between them or the teammates they embrace is they did not draw the short straw when it came time for the UCI to decide who to make an example. Even worse, questions swirl around why some were chosen for the scarlet letter and others were not. The stink of corruption wafts off the methods used to clean up the sport. In many ways the cure is worse than the disease. There is some measure of fairness in turning a blind eye to doping and letting the riders do what they are willing to do--at least there is compared to venal men in the UCI deciding which riders should be burnt at the stake and which are too valuable to not be given a second or third chance before cracking down on them or left alone altogether.

The ends resemble the means. This sort of corruption will not end well.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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17 Mar 2013 23:38

blackcat wrote:to be fair, this could mean "never had a conversation about the clinic with a person I know". I think he would concede that there are people who have read this thread that move in his circle.

or another explanation is you are perfect in the interpretation. fair too. doublespeak and extemorising from the corner of his mouth is part of the shtick we are well versed in from jonny vee


250,000 of those views are mine. I'd like to read my posts over and over and over and over and.....
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18 Mar 2013 01:05

blackcat wrote:to be fair, this could mean "never had a conversation about the clinic with a person I know". I think he would concede that there are people who have read this thread that move in his circle.

or another explanation is you are perfect in the interpretation. fair too. doublespeak and extemorising from the corner of his mouth is part of the shtick we are well versed in from jonny vee


absolutely. theyve just never mentioned it.

thats all i was saying.
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18 Mar 2013 01:07

Granville57 wrote:That's cute, actually.

At the time of this post, there are over 385,000 views of this thread. The "Sky" thread alone currently has nearly one and a half MILLION views. So I'm not quite sure what to make your response—six degrees of separation, and all that.

The cycling twitter-verse is fairly incestuous, no? You play a starring role in that ongoing soap opera as much as anyone.

You are, by all accounts, in somewhat constant contact with many, many people involved in cycling. You spar constantly with Digger, exchange jokes and info with Race Radio, interact with NYVelocity, and appear on Neil Browne's TourChats, and that's just to name a very, very few. Most of the people who you seem to be daily contact with are very aware of The Clinic.

Your own participation here would seem to keep you up at night formulating responses to questions and accusations that perhaps rattle around your skull endlessly.

And yet your conversations here never creep into your "real world"? Seriously, dude? You've never mentioned The Clinic to someone and had them confirm their own familiarity with it?

Or I'm supposed to believe that you have mentioned it to someone in your social cycling circle, and they responded with a blank stare? Cyclingnews? Forums? The Clinic? No idea what you're talking about, Jonanthan.

Or perhaps what you simply meant was that you never bothered to raise the issue of The Clinic in any sort of casual conversation. Maybe the people you interact with know about it, maybe they don't. It's just never come up.

But let's face it: You and a large portion of the pro cycling universe are as obsessed with Twitter and forum gossip as any 13-year-old girl. The main difference, as I see it, is that a 13-year-old will post something from the backseat of their parents car on the way home from school. You tweet in the middle of race. :eek:

And yet you claim that you've "never spoken to anyone in 'real life' that is aware of The Clinic." Really?

Trust me on this, JV. I'm not desperately looking for some sort of confirmation that yes, yes, yes, real people in the real world really, really do read The Clinic! Personally, I couldn't care less (I hardly post here myself these days). But I have a very hard time buying what you are selling on this small—and admittedly rather insignificant—point. But it does touch on at least one of the reasons that some here find your responses to be either disingenuous or deliberately deceptive.

So allow me to amend your remark (if I may be so humble).

You actually have spoken to people, plenty of people, in "real life" that are aware of The Clinic.

Ok, ok, perhaps they didn't reveal their shared inside knowledge of this very secret and secluded corner of the interwebz, but you have spoken to people who are aware of it.

I could on and on, but I won't. I'll just leave you with two names, off the top of my head, to ponder.

















Betsy and Frankie. Those names ring a bell? :rolleyes:


ive never spoken to either of them about the clinic?

im sure alot of folks read this stuff. just no one ever mentions it. i dont know why.
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18 Mar 2013 01:13

JV1973 wrote:absolutely. theyve just never mentioned it.

thats all i was saying.



Wasn't that the idea with "Fight Club" too?
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18 Mar 2013 01:21

Jeremiah wrote:Wasn't that the idea with "Fight Club" too?


Like the Days of our Lives or The Young and Restless.

No one watches them.

Been running for 25 years.... :cool:
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18 Mar 2013 01:29

BroDeal wrote:I have a question, which is the major issue I have with your approach. You are a strange cat. The number of people in the situation you were in who would walk away from a half mil a year contract is very small. You have repeatedly said that you can make more money elsewhere, so my impression is that once you finish your MBA, you will use that, your experience running Slipstream, and the contacts made while courting sponsors to land a lucrative corporate gig. What happens when you are gone?

You have constructed a doping policy based on a combination of altruism and secrecy, often displaying a contempt for giving details to schmucks like us and other fans who "don't need to know." Because of the precarious nature of a sport reliant on sponsorship, it is understandable to feel the the urge to keep doping details confined to organizations you have described as being capable of making a difference; but what happens when there are fewer altruists and the secrecy allows the old schoolers to go back to the methods that served them well when they were riders?

An unrelated observation I have is that the sport through the UCI has created a situation that may be more sordid than the free-for-all doping that preceeded it. It appears to me that the UCI has used its power to scapegoat a few riders as a means to goad the others into changing their behavior. All law enforcement has some element of this, but a fair system strives to apply the laws evenly and punishment with proportional measure to the crime committed, taking into account how extraordinary the convicted's behavior was. Cycling, on the other hand, has utterly destroyed people like Landis and Ricco for doing no more than what their colleagues were doing.

To make the situation sleazier, the riders who are left publicly heap scorn on the Landises and the Riccos even though the only difference between them or the teammates they embrace is they did not draw the short straw when it came time for the UCI to decide who to make an example. Even worse, questions swirl around why some were chosen for the scarlet letter and others were not. The stink of corruption wafts off the methods used to clean up the sport. In many ways the cure is worse than the disease. There is some measure of fairness in turning a blind eye to doping and letting the riders do what they are willing to do--at least there is compared to venal men in the UCI deciding which riders should be burnt at the stake and which are too valuable to not be given a second or third chance before cracking down on them or left alone altogether.

The ends resemble the means. This sort of corruption will not end well.


one: i give you guys a lot more detail than any of my peer, advisors, etc are comfortable with. come on. be fair. and i do not treat you withe contempt, unless im getting needlessly harassed.

as for me moving on, you are right. as david walsh said to me in 2003, when i as telling him i just didnt care and i was moving on, "jonathan, show some resolve, and dont just leave the sport to the bad guys".... it was nice of him to say that.

reality is this: as doping scandals drive out what sort of fans/sponsors? those tht find it morally repugnant. so, whos left? those that dont care or dont find it morally repugnant.

thats scary. and a very real possibility.

a way so this doesnt happen? while scandals serve to help clean things up, they drive off quite a few folks that could help out. its a tricky balance.

an example, usada, i think, has done a commendable job, but theyre limited to us athletes. right now, i read very negative comments about my three guy coming back to competition. imagine if many anti doping bodies were are focused as usada, but they arent. and so, we have a few guys under an authority that cares and many that are under an authority whch does not care. who gets driven out of the sport? I only see a few athletes taking the heat for hundreds. I imagine they will be the ones driven out. and those left untouched will race on.

i dont know what to tell you, but if we cant find a way to clean things up without driving away the people who actually care, its pretty lost. i do my best, but im rarely greeted with open arms and im just one guy.

help me out here . it would be apprecaited.
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18 Mar 2013 01:35

Jeremiah wrote:Wasn't that the idea with "Fight Club" too?


very good. From torah and old testament FTW. hail mary from way-downtown.

JV1973 wrote:im sure alot of folks read this stuff. just no one ever mentions it. i dont know why.


well, have a think. the negative, or information gap.

this is instructive no? re: transparency. the sport really does not wish to air its dirty linen.

nothing to do with this thread, or cyclinnews fora, or anyother web media, raceradio or shenschmultz@nyvelocity. but if the grey lady and macur and albergotti gives them props, then others are getting to know.

ok, so you dont (generic, not to jonnyvee) want to send any peloton whispers that grow to roars admitting the game is up. its more comfortable in the denial and the SSDD status quo
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18 Mar 2013 01:39

JV1973 wrote:
reality is this: as doping scandals drive out what sort of fans/sponsors? those tht find it morally repugnant. so, whos left? those that dont care or dont find it morally repugnant.

thats scary. and a very real possibility.


maybe not. perhaps the next wunderkind, lets say Talansky, the next wunderkind clean athlete is happy to race domestic and Gila like 131313.

perhaps a re-definition of the sport, is not a bad thing. it is merely a new definition. would it be more authentic to race Gila in this example.
"Hitler … didn't even sink to using chemical weapons."
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18 Mar 2013 01:39

deValtos wrote:I don't understand ? What is this arbitrary calculation ?


It's a witty jape about how the clinic only has 12 members- the clinic 12.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
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18 Mar 2013 01:44

deValtos wrote:I don't understand ? What is this arbitrary calculation ?

= the twelve members of the clinic.

euphemistically termed, Clinic 12, or in definitive form, The Clinic 12. Some prefer to grammatically (sic) correct (verb) it, Clinic Twelve.

hence

Clicks
[color="White"]_[/color]12
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18 Mar 2013 01:45

I don't know about the sponsors, but I'd say the doping scandals don't drive away the fans who care. Rather, they make them more radical in their anti-doping stance. At least that's the feeling I get from my experience and my observations.

Casual sports fans who live in la-la-land might be driven away from cycling and take refuge in a clean sport like soccer (:o), but not the fans who genuinely care about doping. Of course, casual fans are important for business, but they aren't the ones who are going to press for change either. In this era of Twitter, I'd say the outrage of the cycling fans who care about doping is very much an untapped resource.
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18 Mar 2013 01:45

blackcat wrote:maybe not. perhaps the next wunderkind, lets say Talansky, the next wunderkind clean athlete is happy to race domestic and Gila like 131313.

perhaps a re-definition of the sport, is not a bad thing. it is merely a new definition. would it be more authentic to race Gila in this example.



but its races like gila that suffer the most. who wants to fund gila? its dirty by association. domestic teams have sufferd more than wt teams out of these scandals.

thats the problem. the good gets thrown out by the righteous. and whatis left?

btw - i do think this an be solved, i just dont think its simpleor easy.
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18 Mar 2013 01:49

but Gila and other races still exist because of volunteers and those with genuine passion and do not see a W and fame and its external locus and the rewards(open close inverted commas) that come with it, as the be all and end.
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18 Mar 2013 01:55

interesting with the garmin 3 back racing again tommorow.
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18 Mar 2013 02:05

manafana wrote:interesting with the garmin 3 back racing again tommorow.


Garmin 3 - 7 Tour de France wins = -4 x -3 (because the Clinic is negative, and has been in existence for 3 years...okay, I haven't checked that fact, but Coyle didn't check Armstrong's weight, so...) = 12. The Clinic 12.

Image

Freak out on that.
[SIZE="3"]Not sure I even care anymore...[/SIZE]
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18 Mar 2013 02:06

Mr Vaughters sir.

Not really the reason you come here for but further to your earlier comment about Richie Porte being offered 800 000 I was wondering if you have any further information on that.


JV1973 wrote:
reality is this: as doping scandals drive out what sort of fans/sponsors? those tht find it morally repugnant. so, whos left? those that dont care or dont find it morally repugnant..


Its business. Sponsors leave if they think doping is bad for business.
Or at least in the your hypothetical conversation with "the clinic" that is what "the clinic" would say;)

I do think however that you are wrong to portray the clinic as one singleminded entity. The observations and responses you attributed to "the clinic" are not the ones I and many others would make

This is just a place where people come to discuss doping. Everyone has their own opinion. I think the opinions of those who are loudest in this thread (like the sniper fella) weighed too heavily on the observations offered in your post by "the clinic".
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
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18 Mar 2013 02:13

The Hitch wrote:Mr Vaughters sir.

Not really the reason you come here for but further to your earlier comment about Richie Porte being offered 800 000 I was wondering if you have any further information on that.




Its business. Sponsors leave if they think doping is bad for business.
Or at least in the your hypothetical conversation with "the clinic" that is what "the clinic" would say;)

I do think however that you are wrong to portray the clinic as one singleminded entity. The observations and responses you attributed to "the clinic" are not the ones I and many others would make

This is just a place where people come to discuss doping. Everyone has their own opinion. I think the opinions of those who are loudest in this thread (like the sniper fella) weighed too heavily on the observations offered in your post by "the clinic".


The problem there, Hitch, is how rarely the 'saner' members of 'the twelve' disavow the wilder rantings of the, well, the 'less sane'.

Some of the 'cynic' guys are willing to discuss, to listen to an argument, to hope for improvement, to consider other possiblilities.

And some, to quote the film, some just want to watch the world burn. It's very hard to get past that.

And maybe it's just me, but it always seems incredibly rude or discourteous that JV gets quizzed here on his attitude to Sky - they aren't his team, and it's the Clinic's obsession, not his.
Some of the flak he takes for not simply agreeing with the wilder conspiracies on that team is just bonkers.
For ****s sake, Garmin are a more than interesting team, ask him about them.
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18 Mar 2013 02:20

ChewbaccaD wrote:Garmin 3 - 7 Tour de France wins = -4 x -3 (because the Clinic is negative, and has been in existence for 3 years...okay, I haven't checked that fact, but Coyle didn't check Armstrong's weight, so...) = 12. The Clinic 12.

Image

Freak out on that.

I can deduce from this, Prussian aristocrat Baron von Harold was... one of, perhaps THE first, preparatore
Sea-Monkeys is a brand name for brine shrimp – a group of crustaceans that undergo cryptobiosis – often sold in hatching kits as novelty aquarium pets. Invented in 1957 by Harold von Braunhut, the product was heavily marketed, especially in comic books, and retains a presence in popular culture.
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