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USADA-Armstrong Phase II

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USADA-Armstrong Phase II

25 Aug 2012 01:06

It's become absolutely impossible to catch up, or keep up, with the earlier thread. Armstrong has had virtually his entire career vacated, and accordingly is shown as having won not a single Tour de France title. But it isn't over. The fight, I mean. You know it isn't over. We are merely moving into phase II of the denouement.

How many phases will there be? Who knows? But this seems like the perfect time to lock the old thread and start fresh with this new one. What say you?
User avatar Maxiton
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25 Aug 2012 01:38

Maxiton wrote:It's become absolutely impossible to catch up, or keep up, with the earlier thread. Armstrong has had virtually his entire career vacated, and accordingly is shown as having won not a single Tour de France title. But it isn't over. The fight, I mean. You know it isn't over. We are merely moving into phase II of the denouement.

How many phases will there be? Who knows? But this seems like the perfect time to lock the old thread and start fresh with this new one. What say you?


Ok with me...
will it be from the stripping? Forward?
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User avatar mewmewmew13
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25 Aug 2012 01:42

mewmewmew13 wrote:Ok with me...
will it be from the stripping? Forward?


Exactly. From the time he had his titles stripped - today, in other words. Everybody is complaining about the old thread being so long and dense and impossible to keep up with - and I agree - so let's start here.
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25 Aug 2012 01:47

Maybe all the intern types can keep the old thread as their own...y'know just carry on with the arguing there? :D

Not sure if we might need An official decree or not.....?
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User avatar mewmewmew13
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Cool!

25 Aug 2012 01:57

Another chance of being post 10K!
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25 Aug 2012 02:18

Ok, here is an overview.

Armstrong did not to contest a hearing, that doesn’t mean there won’t be a report about his case.

http://www.usada.org/files/pdfs/usada-protocol.pdf

“USADA shall publicly report the disposition of anti-doping matters no later than five business days after … (2) such hearing has been waived.”

Additionally “After an anti-doping rule violation has been established, USADA may comment upon any aspect of the case.”

They need to give this report, with instructions, to the UCI. The UCI then has a "Choice" to follow the instructions of USADA or to take it to CAS. I doubt they would take it to CAS as they would lose quickly. CAS does have a process in place to review and rule on cases rapidly, this would surely qualify.

I expect the UCI to strip Armstrong of all results from Aug 1998 till today. Armstrong has threaten to sue USADA if he is stripped....but who does he sue? It is actually the UCI that would do the stripping so perhaps he files a lawsuit against Travis?

So USADA can release all the evidence they like, the question is how and when. For now Bruyneel, Marti, and Celya all are facing arbitration, this may effect when USADA releases the evidence. They may also just dump it all into the public at the same time they give it to them.

I understand that Armstrong was on the phone with Bruyneel yesterday trying to get him to drop the arbitration. Johan has a lot more to lose as he will be unemployable if he is sanctioned. He does not have the cash that Wonderboy has.
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25 Aug 2012 02:26

That's the interesting part of this situation. Bruyneel needs to work, so he needs to fight this. It should take a good care package to get him to roll over and play dead a la Wonderboy.
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25 Aug 2012 02:31

pedaling squares wrote:That's the interesting part of this situation. Bruyneel needs to work, so he needs to fight this. It should take a good care package to get him to roll over and play dead a la Wonderboy.


The problem is Wonderboy needs to save what is left for his multiple legal fights and judgement. He has heavy exposure and limited earning potential
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25 Aug 2012 02:35

Ok, that sounds good so far. Nothing else expected from RR. He´s like mother who says everything will be all right son, don´t worry.
I need that from time to time. That´s why i love his posts... :)
So thanks yet again.
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25 Aug 2012 02:36

Thanx much for all the info RR.
Glad that USADA has the freedom to let the evidence see daylight and that you clarified this.

I'm sure that was an interesting call to JB from lance. Heavy subject matter.
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25 Aug 2012 02:38

Bruyneel might as well take the money and run. I mean, sure he needs employment but what's the point of even going into arbitration? He's going to face the same onslaught Armstrong would have faced - they were like tweedledee and tweedledum. What does he gain by arbitrating?
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25 Aug 2012 02:40

there are two streams as we go forward. the process stream and the reality on the ground stream.

on the process stream, it remains unclear if the UCI or ASO will recognize the bans. will armstrong file with Sparks if the USADA reveal too much evidence? do they give the wins to someone else?

on the reality on the ground stream, people are now challenged as individuals to decide whether they still recognize armstrong as having won those tours. i tend to think most people will still continue to believe, doping or not, that he is the rightful winner, and that will extend to nearly all of professional cycling. there will be those that try to jump on the bandwagon and condemn him in the sport, but this will only heighten division and tension. it will likely be a very sore wound for the sport for many years with people asking why we don't go back and investigate Eddie Merkx etc. the fact that USADA went over the statute of limitations for armstrong and effectively let everyone else off for double crossing him, will leave a legacy of bitterness amongst pros and fans alike for a very long time.
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25 Aug 2012 02:48

Maxiton wrote:Bruyneel might as well take the money and run. I mean, sure he needs employment but what's the point of even going into arbitration? He's going to face the same onslaught Armstrong would have faced - they were like tweedledee and tweedledum. What does he gain by arbitrating?


i think the camps are divided. there is one school of thought that wants to test the witnesses. they think it will be quite easy to knock down the usual suspects like betsy, landis, hamiton in public hearings, and they hope that the real damaging people like Hincapie will refuse to testify, thus invalidating their written testimony. that's the johan camp. but armstrong seems to simply wants to ride his bike and do his charity - he genuinely seems sick of it all.
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25 Aug 2012 02:49

Maxiton wrote:Bruyneel might as well take the money and run. I mean, sure he needs employment but what's the point of even going into arbitration? He's going to face the same onslaught Armstrong would have faced - they were like tweedledee and tweedledum. What does he gain by arbitrating?


Thinking of what happens when he arbitrates and UCI "bidness" comes up as well as expansion beyond he/Lance: it is all downside. He will undoubtedly be dragged into as many legal cases either as defendant or witness as Lance if he arbitrates. They both put a call into Uncle Thom W before making a final decision to be sure.
Who gets saved is important as well. The lesser weasels populating USA Cycling, Och, Carmichael and probably more get spared indignity at least if more testimony is avoided. Unless, of course, USADA releases information that sheds light under their respective rocks as well. USADA has limited funds so it is doubtful they'll press too many issues.

It'd be interesting to assemble a tree of exposure if evidence is dumped.
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25 Aug 2012 02:49

Fausto's Schnauzer wrote:Another chance of being post 10K!


I'm going for a consecutive title against these chumps who call themselves my rivals.

It is big time schadenfreude, but I am loving the response of people like Gree who cannot accept that the dream is gone. I can only imagine how dumbfounded Armstrong must have been feeling the last few weeks. He probably could not believe this was happening to him.
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25 Aug 2012 02:52

Maxiton wrote:Bruyneel might as well take the money and run. I mean, sure he needs employment but what's the point of even going into arbitration? He's going to face the same onslaught Armstrong would have faced - they were like tweedledee and tweedledum. What does he gain by arbitrating?


A possible reduced sentence. He's probably hoping for 2-4 years. He's still young so he can serve his ban and then try to get back into the sport.
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25 Aug 2012 02:53

Å wrote: he genuinely seems sick of it all.


Because he is on the losing end. Let the lawsuits begin, and if we are really lucky, indictment for fraud.

OTOH, there are so many people who do not listen to facts or understand law, that I fear if Armstrong faced a trial by jury, he would prevail.

Not on evidence, on idiocy. Just like OJ.
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25 Aug 2012 02:56

Turner29 wrote:Because he is on the losing end. Let the lawsuits begin, and if we are really lucky, indictment for fraud.

OTOH, there are so many people who do not listen to facts or understand law, that I fear if Armstrong faced a trial by jury, he would prevail.

Not on evidence, on idiocy. Just like OJ.


but johan is on the apparently losing end and not sick of it. i'm saying there are two different schools of thoughts on how to approach it. going back to the men's journal interview, lance seems to have been leading the dove camp.
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25 Aug 2012 03:00

ÅSBJÖRN BENKT wrote:but johan is on the apparently losing end and not sick of it. i'm saying there are two different schools of thoughts on how to approach it. going back to the men's journal interview, lance seems to have been leading the dove camp.


This may certainly drive a bit of a wedge between the two.
Differing opinions on the correct strategy for each...

Tempers flare ....plans hatched.....backstabbing....payback..
ooh, the possibilities..
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25 Aug 2012 03:00

Jensie talks; this is the kind of things we need riders to say :)

Voigt said a clear conscience is also the reward for avoiding the "short cuts" that lead to doping allegations and busts.

"[Thursday] I had to go to doping control after my stage win," he said. "And I know that even if they freeze it for 100 years and tested it with new methods 100 years from now, it's my win, because nothing is going to happen.

"There is nothing in my urine sample, so I can sleep," he continued. "I can go with my kids, go for a swim, go for a barbecue, go to the zoo, go geocaching and don't be afraid that people might point their fingers at me. I think that's really worth the effort. I'm trying to teach the kids: go straight in life and you will be rewarded for that."


That is what this entire proceeding is about; teaching the kids you don't have to cheat to be a winner!
Alberto Contador=Legend!

Nibali becomes only the 6th winner of all 3 GTS (2014)!
Nibali joins Gimondi, Merckx and Hinault as only the 4th man to win all 3 GTS and 2 different Monuments (2018). A throwback rider in this age of specialization. Bravo!
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