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Vuelta 2013 route

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05 Jan 2013 14:06

According to reports Mirador of Ezaro, Collado de Gallina and Fuente De are all set to repeat:(

We may have to wait until Purito and Valverde end their careers for Unipublic to have a different approach.
User avatar the asian
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05 Jan 2013 14:38

Honestly, I begin to stop keepin the pace with you.
When Giro had 8 mtf was the best. When Tour had 2 1/2 was the worst. From this I deduce you all love mountain stages. Tour is always bad because it has a lot of plain stages. So, 11 is too much fun? Like too much cake?
Or this is the confirmation of the fact that some of you will never be happy with any route? You know 2 years ago when everybody screamed and yelled Grand Colombier? And when it came.....wow, worst route ever. I know it was 40 km to the finish, but it was there. That would not have been a problem for a rider who actually wanted to won the Tour/or the stage. Look at the stages in 50s, 60s, 70s. Please count the MTF in those years. I happen to have a magazine with mountains of the Tour, and for example, in Pyrenees, from 1950, it's less than 1MTF/Tour if you do the math. And Tours from 95 to present got that percent up.
Or is it that they don't do multiple climbs stages? It's Spain. I know on mapmyride.com you can make great stages. But, did you checked the quality of the road? Just saying.
McLovin
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05 Jan 2013 14:42

McLovin wrote:Or is it that they don't do multiple climbs stages? It's Spain. I know on mapmyride.com you can make great stages. But, did you checked the quality of the road? Just saying.

yes to both the questions.
It's Spain, not Denmark. There are climbs there.
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


Bronze Medal at the Great Grand Tour Game 2012

WARNING: Location says Germany, but I'm Italian...
User avatar Eshnar
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05 Jan 2013 14:45

Eshnar wrote:yes to both the questions.
It's Spain, not Denmark. There are climbs there.

Don't be rude! :mad: :p

We have The Sky Mountain :cool: (147m tall hill)
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
User avatar Netserk
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05 Jan 2013 14:46

Eshnar wrote:yes to both the questions.
It's Spain, not Denmark. There are climbs there.


Ok then. I will have to believe you because I can't check it myself.
McLovin
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05 Jan 2013 14:49

Netserk wrote:Don't be rude! :mad: :p

We have The Sky Mountain :cool: (147m tall hill)

:D
It must be an epic ride!
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


Bronze Medal at the Great Grand Tour Game 2012

WARNING: Location says Germany, but I'm Italian...
User avatar Eshnar
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05 Jan 2013 14:49

GP Blanco wrote:I think that ASO wants to give both the Vuelta and Tour a specific character. Vuelta, lopsided with climbs. Tour, lopsided with bunch sprints.


Thats a very good point. La Vuelta is quickly being redesigned as the "climbers tour", making sure that someone like say, Evans in his heyday or even Wiggins, would struggle to win. TDF is all about the all-rounder, climber vs triallist, whereas the Vuelta is now more geared to classic duels on the mountain.
PremiereEtape
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05 Jan 2013 14:54

PremiereEtape wrote:Thats a very good point. La Vuelta is quickly being redesigned as the "climbers tour", making sure that someone like say, Evans in his heyday or even Wiggins, would struggle to win. TDF is all about the all-rounder, climber vs triallist, whereas the Vuelta is now more geared to classic duels on the mountain.


wrong, the vuelta has become a GT for the best uphill sprinter in the peloton simple as that.

1 mountain less then 200km long stages are not stages for the real climbers.

some visual aid:

this is a mountain stage:

Image

a mountain stage this is not:
Image

this is a mountain stage:
Image

a mountain stage this is not:
Image
User avatar Parrulo
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05 Jan 2013 14:55

McLovin wrote:Ok then. I will have to believe you because I can't check it myself.


Just to make things clearer, it's absolutely true that in the old times people used to attack in almost any kind of terrain, but unfortunately cycling has changed in these later years. Teams are stronger, materials and general condition have improved so it's more difficult to make the difference. Cycling has become easier than it was.
Plus, riders are less willing to risk their position because of many factors (example the Uci point system).
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


Bronze Medal at the Great Grand Tour Game 2012

WARNING: Location says Germany, but I'm Italian...
User avatar Eshnar
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05 Jan 2013 14:56

McLovin wrote:Honestly, I begin to stop keepin the pace with you.
When Giro had 8 mtf was the best. When Tour had 2 1/2 was the worst. From this I deduce you all love mountain stages. Tour is always bad because it has a lot of plain stages. So, 11 is too much fun? Like too much cake?
Or this is the confirmation of the fact that some of you will never be happy with any route? You know 2 years ago when everybody screamed and yelled Grand Colombier? And when it came.....wow, worst route ever. I know it was 40 km to the finish, but it was there. That would not have been a problem for a rider who actually wanted to won the Tour/or the stage. Look at the stages in 50s, 60s, 70s. Please count the MTF in those years. I happen to have a magazine with mountains of the Tour, and for example, in Pyrenees, from 1950, it's less than 1MTF/Tour if you do the math. And Tours from 95 to present got that percent up.
Or is it that they don't do multiple climbs stages? It's Spain. I know on mapmyride.com you can make great stages. But, did you checked the quality of the road? Just saying.



many people here criticise the Vuelta mainly because there are no mutiple Mt stages and lack of variety in mountain stages.
And Spain definitely has the terrain and decent enough roads to make it happen.

Also regarding climbs which are far away from the finish, one must realize that Pro bike racing is much different from the 60s and 70s and such stages these days rarely have an impact at all on the GC classifications these days and having very few MTFs along with a reasonable no of TT KMs only lead to boring racing as we saw with this year.
User avatar the asian
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05 Jan 2013 15:11

Parrulo wrote:wrong, the vuelta has become a GT for the best uphill sprinter in the peloton simple as that.

1 mountain less then 200km long stages are not stages for the real climbers.


Dont know if you're necessarily comparing like for like in that example though....I think stages 14 and 16 of last years event are mountain stages by anyones definition.

In terms of distance, stage lengths have been reducing for years across all the big tours....
PremiereEtape
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05 Jan 2013 15:13

Fortunately in Spain ( for example France only have Alps and Pyrenees) we have several places to make great mountain stages ( Andalucia, Asturias, Pirineos, Galicia, León,.........) and even more places to make incredibly good mid mountain stages.

Unfortunately UNIPUBLIC prefers flat stages with an uphill finish in most of the cases
apmfbs
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05 Jan 2013 15:42

PremiereEtape wrote:Thats a very good point. La Vuelta is quickly being redesigned as the "climbers tour", making sure that someone like say, Evans in his heyday or even Wiggins, would struggle to win. TDF is all about the all-rounder, climber vs triallist, whereas the Vuelta is now more geared to classic duels on the mountain.


Nah, it's that Unipublic noted that the mountains were producing smaller gaps.

So rather than make the mountain stages harder, to produce larger gaps, they decided to live with the smaller gaps, but do it on more stages.

Worse, fortunate circumstances regarding Valverde crashing out of GC contention at the Tour and Contador's ban led to all three of the top Spanish cyclists being at the Vuelta last year, the Sky ambush on Valverde in La Rioja and the race was successful, so they've decided that the template works and will continue to move in that direction. But remove even two of the three amigos, and look how paper thin the race starts to look. Take them all out and you're left with Gorka Verdugo and Tomasz Marczyński in the top 10, and Laurens Ten Dam in 5th.

They may be creating classic duels "on the mountain (singular)" but not "in the mountains (plural)" because they are all too often failing to make any more than the last climb meaningful.

Worse yet, they're actively trying to reduce difficulty in the rest of the stage to that end. And they are, all too often, choosing only mid-length climbs (Arrate, Gallina), easy climbs (Valdezcaray) or occasional real challenge climbs, but with all the hardest gradients at the very end thus ensuring most of the activity will only come in that last few kilometres (Cuitu Negru, Bola del Mundo). These climbs are all perfectly useful up to a point; Arrate and Valdezcaray used as they were last year were absolutely fine as part of an otherwise balanced route. The early mountaintop or two that opens up small gaps between contenders and separates the GC men from the boys like Arrate did is ideal, as it also ensures less jostling for position in upcoming flat stages with sprinters, leading to the many crashes we see at, say, the Tour, where the GC status quo isn't usually really organised until a week in.

As for gaps between mountains, here are a few ideas from the Race Design Thread:

Mont Caro x2
Karabieta - Ixua - Oiz - Urkiola - Bikotx-gane
Alisas - La Sía - Picón Blanco
Colladiella - Cobertoria - Cruz de Linares - Maravía - San Lorenzo
Honduras - Tornavacas - Tremedal - La Covatilla (compare to the anæmic 2011 stage to La Covatilla and the much better 2006 stage)
(all of the above from Another Dutch Guy)

Calar Alto - Venta Luisa - Velefique
Monachil - El Dornajo (El Dornajo is rumoured to be a finish in 2013, so hopefully at least Monachil will precede it. This is only a small taster of what could be done with the area around Sierra Nevada).
La Sía - Lunada - Caracol - Estranguada
San Lorenzo - Cobertoria W - Cobertoria E - Ermita de Alba (not sure how feasible an Ermita de Alba finish is, though I'm sure it's steep enough for Guillén to want to find a way. Even if it isn't, because of descending through Cobertoria N via Alto del Cordal, the double Cobertoria climb is feasible - they usually descend the side they would be climbing to the finish here)
Cabra Montés - Las Sabinas - Alguacil (again, something new to do with Sierra Nevada)
Conjuros - Haza del Lino x2 (you'll notice Haza del Lino a lot in fantasy routes. How it's never been in the Vuelta is beyond me, and most other fans)
Fonte da Cova - Llana de las Ovejas (with a small downhill finish to El Morredero, this again is a common double act in Vuelta designs, especially as Ponferrada (which would be at the base of the full length descent) and El Morredero both pay for the Vuelta comparatively frequently but a stage with serious climbs like this gets left off the agenda)
Port del Comte - Banyères - Cantò - Eviny - Port-Ainé
(those ones thanks to Descender)

García - Velefique - Calar Alto
Somiedo - Farrapona - Cobertoria - Cordal - la Vara - Monte Naranco
Jaizkibel - Erlaitz/Castillo del Inglés - Santa Ageda - Mandubia - Lizarrusti - San Miguel de Áralar (concreted and over 8%, I wouldn't be surprised to see San Miguel in the Vuelta soon. Unfortunately I'd expect a flat stage first, or if we're lucky something like Descender suggested with Etxauri and Lizarraga first)
Miserat - Tollos - Tudons - Benimantell - Font de Partagas (again, not sure that Font de Partagas could realistically host the race but it's steep enough and gimmicky enough that I'm sure Guillén would think about it if he could)
Tablones - Canseco - Haza del Lino - Conjuros
(those are mine. I also had a couple of other brutal mountain stages of connecting climbs but they were in Las Canarias so I won't include them)

Lagunas de Neila - las Viniegras - Urbión
Not sure what all of these climbs are without a map, but Fumanya-Pradell is tough enough on its own
Again, not sure what all of thse are without a map but there's lots of them back to back
Almendra - Calar Alto - Velefique - Calar Alto
(thanks to roundabout for those ones)

That's without looking at the options done for Catalunya by Craig, País Vasco by myself or any of the other areas of the country.

http://www.altimetrias.net should be able to while away quite some time realising just how incredible the Vuelta COULD be.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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05 Jan 2013 17:58

I agree with everybody but I can afford the route if Unipublic puts a 65 KM TT flat but you know:mad:
User avatar Forunculo
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05 Jan 2013 19:07



That looks like Coll de Jou, Coll de Jouet, Rassos de Peguera and Fumanyà + Pradell.

Rassos de Peguera has 2 dirt road kms though.
User avatar Descender
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05 Jan 2013 19:12

The problem is that their approach seems to work from a PR point of view. All media reported it was possibly the hardest Vuelta ever last year.
User avatar Arnout
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05 Jan 2013 19:18

Arnout wrote:The problem is that their approach seems to work from a PR point of view. All media reported it was possibly the hardest Vuelta ever last year.

Medias report what they're told to.
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


Bronze Medal at the Great Grand Tour Game 2012

WARNING: Location says Germany, but I'm Italian...
User avatar Eshnar
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05 Jan 2013 19:47

McLovin wrote:Honestly, I begin to stop keepin the pace with you.
When Giro had 8 mtf was the best.


Of course it wasn't.

When Tour had 2 1/2 was the worst.


Of course it wasn't.

From this I deduce you all love mountain stages. Tour is always bad because it has a lot of plain stages. So, 11 is too much fun? Like too much cake?
Or this is the confirmation of the fact that some of you will never be happy with any route?


As Parrulo said, a single-climb MTF Vuelta style is anything but a mountain stage.

You know 2 years ago when everybody screamed and yelled Grand Colombier? And when it came.....wow, worst route ever. I know it was 40 km to the finish, but it was there.


I didn't think there was anything terribly wrong with that stage. It could have been better, but it was a good stage.

Or is it that they don't do multiple climbs stages? It's Spain. I know on mapmyride.com you can make great stages. But, did you checked the quality of the road? Just saying.


Did you check your facts before writing? There are plenty of hard, well-asphalted roads in Spain. The possibilities are numerous, as Libertine showed.
User avatar Descender
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05 Jan 2013 20:22

Descender wrote:Did you check your facts before writing? There are plenty of hard, well-asphalted roads in Spain. The possibilities are numerous, as Libertine showed.


I didn't checked, that's why I asked. But you know, a road, especially a mountain one has to be in perfect condition, not just asphalted. They resurfaced the last part of Galibier in 2011 for example, even it was in perfect shape 11 months before. Snow tend to broke them. Maybe some mayors just don't want to make a commitment. It was an article on cyclingnews this October, with ASO checking the road around Serre Pocon. You think the roads are bad in France? They must be perfect. Imagine a dh at 100 km/h. But I said a few posts before, I don't now how the roads are in Spain. Winters are not winters, anyway.
McLovin
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05 Jan 2013 21:23

Tell me more.
User avatar Descender
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