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Team Time Trials

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Team Time Trials

24 Oct 2012 22:11

What does everyone think of the TTT in a Grand Tour?

Whilst it's a good spectacle, I don't like it. It gives even more advantage to those riders with strong teams, rather than the strongest rider in my eyes.

You look back when Ullrich narrowly lost to Lance Armstrong in 2003, the Team Time Trial Team Telekom lost by 1'30", Ullrich ended up losing the tour by just over a minute. ie. The difference between Ullrich and Armstrong was the Team Time Trial. When you consider that Ullrich blitzed Armstrong in the first individual time trial, and narrowly lost the final time trial (after falling off - taking risks trying to make up the minute deficit) I think this is a really good example of why the Team Time Trial changes results.

Lance already had the advantage from his strong team, helping him in the mountains. Why should he gain time from the team time trial as well?

Any thoughts?
abbaskip
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24 Oct 2012 22:15

abbaskip wrote:You look back when Ullrich narrowly lost to Lance Armstrong in 2003, the Team Time Trial Team Telekom lost by 1'30", Ullrich ended up losing the tour by just over a minute. ie. The difference between Ullrich and Armstrong was the Team Time Trial. When you consider that Ullrich blitzed Armstrong in the first individual time trial, and narrowly lost the final time trial (after falling off - taking risks trying to make up the minute deficit) I think this is a really good example of why the Team Time Trial changes results.


Ullrich didn't ride for Telekom in 2003. And I'm pretty sure they had the idiot "maximum loss of 10 seconds per placing rule". And Lance Armstrong didn't win the 2003 TdF.

Edit:
OK, they didn't have the idiot rule, but Bianchi only lost 43 seconds in the TTT so it's a moot point.
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24 Oct 2012 22:16

Lance who?
User avatar swuzzlebubble
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24 Oct 2012 23:45

Yeah I remember him winning Fleche Wallonne and the Worlds in the 90s but then he kinda fell off the map.
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24 Oct 2012 23:58

Loving the comments :)
burning
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25 Oct 2012 00:04

Its a simple.matter of right and wrong.

Ttts are the equivalent of giving some riders a huge headstart over others.

They also often ruin the spectacle- eg when Andy schleck gains time in the ttt meaning he neutralizes the mountains, and idiots like rcs aso and unipublic use it instead of tts which would actually liven the race up.
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25 Oct 2012 01:25

Oops, knew Jan was racing for Bianchi that year too.

It's still not a moot point though. The fact is that going into the final time trial there would have been about 22 seconds difference instead of the 1 minute plus. That's a huge difference. Who know show the final TT would have unfolded in that case.

The point is that the team has enough influence, in being able to help in the mountains etc. Having a Team Time Trial helps them even more.

Look at a case like Andy Schleck - when he had engines like Cancellara, O'Grady, and Voigt riding for him - yet contributed not much himself on a TTT stage.

A Grand Tour GC should be about the best rider, not the best team. Teams will always influence results, but they shouldn't have as much control as they do in the Team Time Trial.
abbaskip
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25 Oct 2012 02:55

abbaskip wrote:A Grand Tour GC should be about the best rider, not the best team. Teams will always influence results, but they shouldn't have as much control as they do in the Team Time Trial.
And yet when we look at the issue of the UCI points system, many of the critics wish for more recognition of the team.

EG There have been suggestions for the team, rather than the rider, to get points such that he cannot take them to a new team and/or for points earned in a race to be split amongst all riders of the team rather than just those that finish off the work for a result.

So given the current juxtaposition of teams being within what is technically an individual sport, a team time trial, if nothing else, serves to resolve that, imo.
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25 Oct 2012 03:02

I don't like them at all. I wish they would disappear.
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25 Oct 2012 05:15

swuzzlebubble wrote:And yet when we look at the issue of the UCI points system, many of the critics wish for more recognition of the team.

EG There have been suggestions for the team, rather than the rider, to get points such that he cannot take them to a new team and/or for points earned in a race to be split amongst all riders of the team rather than just those that finish off the work for a result.

So given the current juxtaposition of teams being within what is technically an individual sport, a team time trial, if nothing else, serves to resolve that, imo.


I don't mind teams being entered into events etc on what is generally a team by team basis (though wild cards can bring in any individuals who aren't in big enough teams). But having an individual race result changed so drastically by a team's result is silly.
abbaskip
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25 Oct 2012 05:26

I've had just about enough of them.
User avatar Descender
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25 Oct 2012 05:44

I love watching Team Time Trials, wished there were more of this event. Having them mix the GC standings up a little is a small price to pay. Glad to see it's back in the TdF, pity it couldn't be longer...
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25 Oct 2012 08:07

I personally love TTTs! :D [SIZE="2"]But of course, I love everything about cycling, or at least road-cycling...[/SIZE]

As for them favoring riders with strong teams instead of individually strong riders, well; I find that one of the beauties of cycling, that it's at the same time a team sport and an individual sport. Besides; if we're talking TTTs in GTs, where they're usually in the first week, then I just gonna say that quite a lot can happen from the TTT is ridden, 'till the riders reach the final destination, whether it be Milan, Paris or Madrid. Or somewhere else...
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25 Oct 2012 09:11

This is not a team sport, so get rid of them.
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25 Oct 2012 09:23

SafeBet wrote:This is not a team sport, so get rid of them.


Then how come the riders ride on teams? :p
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Lars Michaelsen during the Tinkoff-Saxo team briefing before stage 11 of the 2014 Giro d'Italia.
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25 Oct 2012 09:49

I love the TTT's but in a grand tour they should be used as a prologue, not as a TT that has an impact on the GC. But they are great in a prologue, it's a beautiful way to show every team and the riders you will watch for the next 3 weeks.
Leonardus
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25 Oct 2012 09:52

abbaskip wrote:What does everyone think of the TTT in a Grand Tour?

Whilst it's a good spectacle, I don't like it. It gives even more advantage to those riders with strong teams, rather than the strongest rider in my eyes.


Any thoughts?


IMO, GTs need TTT, and a bit longer than nowdays, something over 40 km
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25 Oct 2012 10:20

Capablanca and me wrote:IMO, GTs need TTT, and a bit longer than nowdays, something over 40 km


I like short TTT's for the spectacle but anything over 20k and they have too much bearing on the overall.
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25 Oct 2012 10:47

Swifty's Cakes wrote:I like short TTT's for the spectacle but anything over 20k and they have too much bearing on the overall.


and its bad? confuse the overall? i think is good :)
force the climbers to attack, not just in the last 3-4 km in the mountains

with TTT, plus one mountain finish or less ITT km's
can have long TTT, just keep the route balanced, for the racers

edit: 2013 TDF route, is a good example, because the TTT, the ITT is not so long as usual, less than 40km!!
2013 TDF route is balanced, than 2012 was
User avatar Capablanca and me
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25 Oct 2012 11:33

I don't like short gimmick TTTs like those RCS and Unipublic love so much, they feel like a waste of a race day. If they are going to throw a TTT in a GT route, it should be long enough to impact the race (>45km) otherwise I don't see the point.

And not every year, of course. One each 3/4 editions seems about right to me.
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