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Team Time Trials

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

25 Oct 2012 16:22

woodenswan wrote:???
think.
it's good for you.


:rolleyes:, yeah we should have national teams contest and then hope all the riders on the winning team are all on the same trade team. Teams are made up of riders from many different countries so to have a team be the world team time trial champions it has to be the trade teams that compete.
User avatar Afrank
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25 Oct 2012 16:32

Afrank wrote::rolleyes:, yeah we should have national teams contest and then hope all the riders on the winning team are all on the same trade team. Teams are made up of riders from many different countries so to have a team be the world team time trial champions it has to be the trade teams that compete.


i admit, it would look stupid, or at least somewhat unconventional to have the TTT WCs on different trade teams. not more unconventional or illogical than having a WC event without national teams though :o
woodenswan
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25 Oct 2012 16:55

Its a cycling discipline at the end of the day, so I think 1 is okay for a GT,

I agree it would be good to have it out of the way and replace the prologue, then having a short and long ITT somewhere afterwards
MellowJohnny
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25 Oct 2012 19:42

Great stuff. Must be at least 3 months since we've debated the relative merits of the TTT. I'm still in the 'for' camp. Very much so.
King Of The Wolds
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25 Oct 2012 20:55

DominicDecoco wrote:Now that's a wrong statement in many ways.


How about mentioning one of them instead of being so criptic?
User avatar SafeBet
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25 Oct 2012 21:30

Maybe if we didn't seem to get one in almost every GT it wouldn't seem so played out, but frankly they belong on the track and should never have left it.

As to them affecting the GC... Michele Scarponi lost more time in the 32km TTT in the 2010 Giro than he lost in the other 3453km combined. By about four times. In a 32km ITT, there is no way, no way on earth Ivan Basso takes more than 2 minutes out of Scarponi.

TTTs are, however, here to stay. If the 2009 Tour didn't kill the TTT off for good, nothing can, sadly. Here's the top 4 teams in the TTT that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Garmin
Liquigas

Here are the teams for the top 10 on GC that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

By the time they got to the Alps, riders who didn't have super-strong TTT teams were already eliminated from contention, allowing the strong TTT teams to tighten their vice-like grip on the race, which they had because they, surprise surprise, were the strongest teams. Riders on the strongest teams are already advantaged by, you know, having the strongest team.

The arguments for more or less boil down to two things.
1) they look cool. I don't disagree, but aesthetics is a poor return on the effect they have on the GC;
2) they force teams to select more balanced teams, meaning fewer mountain domestiques and more km raced alone by the leaders.

Point 2 actually has some merit, but I don't see why they can't just include tougher rouleur stages, with some cobbles and the like, instead. After all, anything else a TTT has to offer can be replicated, only without most of the flaws, with an ITT.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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25 Oct 2012 21:36

SafeBet wrote:How about mentioning one of them instead of being so criptic?


You want me mention why cycling is also a team sport?

Is this for real?
DominicDecoco
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25 Oct 2012 21:49

I like TTT at the start. It's a good spectacle. I would prefer a TTT that doesn't affect the GC too much.


The devil in me however would love to see a MTTT. Esp up the Zoncolan.
User avatar Izzy eviel
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25 Oct 2012 22:07

Libertine Seguros wrote:TTTs are, however, here to stay. If the 2009 Tour didn't kill the TTT off for good, nothing can, sadly. Here's the top 4 teams in the TTT that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Garmin
Liquigas

Here are the teams for the top 10 on GC that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux


But disregarding the result of the ttt, the only rider who would enter the top 10 would be Mikel Astarloza who tested positive anyway. Considering the composition of Astana, Saxo Bank, Garmin and Liquigas in 2009 it's hardly surprising that they would fill the top 4 of the ttt and the top 10 of the GC.
User avatar Magnus
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25 Oct 2012 22:12

The Hitch wrote:That doesn't make any sense.
An mtf if my team is **** and im about to be "doomed" i dig deep and limit my losses.

In a ttt it doesn't matter what i do because i get measured on the time of the 4th weakest rider of my team.

Yeah, cause one rider can't influence how a team prepares and cooperates.
User avatar Magnus
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25 Oct 2012 22:25

Magnus wrote:But disregarding the result of the ttt, the only rider who would enter the top 10 would be Mikel Astarloza who tested positive anyway. Considering the composition of Astana, Saxo Bank, Garmin and Liquigas in 2009 it's hardly surprising that they would fill the top 4 of the ttt and the top 10 of the GC.


But with the TTT so early, it's hard to then just remove it like that, because guys like Evans, Sastre and co wouldn't have been forced to attempt doomed breaks that caused them to melt down completely, because a guy like Evans would typically be up there in the mix after the ITTs. Guys like the Schlecks would have time to make up, thus making the mountain stages interesting. The TTT reversed this, leaving the guys who needed to make the time up to be the ones who were least well-suited to it.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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25 Oct 2012 22:55

Libertine Seguros wrote:But with the TTT so early, it's hard to then just remove it like that, because guys like Evans, Sastre and co wouldn't have been forced to attempt doomed breaks that caused them to melt down completely, because a guy like Evans would typically be up there in the mix after the ITTs. Guys like the Schlecks would have time to make up, thus making the mountain stages interesting. The TTT reversed this, leaving the guys who needed to make the time up to be the ones who were least well-suited to it.
One might think a sensitive poster like you would like to see the TTT in a GT, but I was wrong. In the past, your arguments have been weak, and they haven't improved. You don't seem to see the big picture here. Think TEAM.
Do you want to watch better bike racing? => Team radios (not race radio) must go!
User avatar cineteq
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25 Oct 2012 23:45

Izzy eviel wrote:

The devil in me however would love to see a MTTT. Esp up the Zoncolan.


now i love me some prologues but that would be awesome :D
just imagine that..
woodenswan
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25 Oct 2012 23:55

Nothing wrong with a TTT of 25K. Teams have 8 months for goodness sake to get it together.
User avatar ferryman
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26 Oct 2012 01:24

Capablanca and me wrote:and its bad? confuse the overall? i think is good :)
force the climbers to attack, not just in the last 3-4 km in the mountains

with TTT, plus one mountain finish or less ITT km's
can have long TTT, just keep the route balanced, for the racers

edit: 2013 TDF route, is a good example, because the TTT, the ITT is not so long as usual, less than 40km!!
2013 TDF route is balanced, than 2012 was

No an ITT forces the climbers to attack. A TTT can favour a climber as much as an ITT. It doesn't depend at all on the individual's strength, it depends on 8 other guys in his team.
abbaskip
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26 Oct 2012 01:25

cineteq wrote:A TTT has a place in GTs and it should be used more often. Its distance should be proportional to the GT parcours, so it's not to be too decisive for the overall.

It allows the whole team to contribute to their GC leader.

It allows for opportunities for some, however it could doom others. Same thing as an ITT or a MTF would do. Another variable of many variables that would enrich GTs.


The whole team already contributes. Did you see Team Sky in the mountains last year? USPS/Discovery for however many years before? CSC when Sastre beat Evans?
abbaskip
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Joined: 07 Jul 2010 16:48

26 Oct 2012 01:28

Libertine Seguros wrote:Maybe if we didn't seem to get one in almost every GT it wouldn't seem so played out, but frankly they belong on the track and should never have left it.

As to them affecting the GC... Michele Scarponi lost more time in the 32km TTT in the 2010 Giro than he lost in the other 3453km combined. By about four times. In a 32km ITT, there is no way, no way on earth Ivan Basso takes more than 2 minutes out of Scarponi.

TTTs are, however, here to stay. If the 2009 Tour didn't kill the TTT off for good, nothing can, sadly. Here's the top 4 teams in the TTT that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Garmin
Liquigas

Here are the teams for the top 10 on GC that year:
Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

By the time they got to the Alps, riders who didn't have super-strong TTT teams were already eliminated from contention, allowing the strong TTT teams to tighten their vice-like grip on the race, which they had because they, surprise surprise, were the strongest teams. Riders on the strongest teams are already advantaged by, you know, having the strongest team.

The arguments for more or less boil down to two things.
1) they look cool. I don't disagree, but aesthetics is a poor return on the effect they have on the GC;
2) they force teams to select more balanced teams, meaning fewer mountain domestiques and more km raced alone by the leaders.

Point 2 actually has some merit, but I don't see why they can't just include tougher rouleur stages, with some cobbles and the like, instead. After all, anything else a TTT has to offer can be replicated, only without most of the flaws, with an ITT.


THIS

Magnus wrote:But disregarding the result of the ttt, the only rider who would enter the top 10 would be Mikel Astarloza who tested positive anyway. Considering the composition of Astana, Saxo Bank, Garmin and Liquigas in 2009 it's hardly surprising that they would fill the top 4 of the ttt and the top 10 of the GC.


This is irrelevant, as once riders are out of GC contention they often start chasing stage wins. It's easier to win stages when you've lost big times, so it's not uncommon for them to finish an early stage with the autobus.
abbaskip
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26 Oct 2012 01:31

cineteq wrote:One might think a sensitive poster like you would like to see the TTT in a GT, but I was wrong. In the past, your arguments have been weak, and they haven't improved. You don't seem to see the big picture here. Think TEAM.


ferryman wrote:Nothing wrong with a TTT of 25K. Teams have 8 months for goodness sake to get it together.


It's not about getting it together and practicing. Teams with bigger time trial engines will still be stronger. Why should Schleck benefit from having big engines in his team? I get that it's partly a "team" sport, but there are individual and team events. The idea is that a team can HELP an individual, but in this case they're not helping, they're GIVING the rider their time. It's completely different thing.

I want to see the strongest rider win the GC of a Grand Tour. The strongest team can win the Teams competition.

If it's such a team sport, as half you guys seem to be banging on, then why isn't the Teams competition at a grand tour a big deal?
abbaskip
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26 Oct 2012 02:28

abbaskip wrote:The whole team already contributes. Did you see Team Sky in the mountains last year? USPS/Discovery for however many years before? CSC when Sastre beat Evans?
Last year no. This year yes. ;)
Do you want to watch better bike racing? => Team radios (not race radio) must go!
User avatar cineteq
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Location: Montreal, Canada

26 Oct 2012 03:15

Are we back to calling the individual GC in a stage race a team event?
Ferminal
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