Log in:  

Register

Stars and Watercarriers

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

17 Nov 2012 16:27

babastooey wrote:I love the old documentaries. I have a neat little DVD collection of the following:

A Sunday in Hell
Stars and Watercarriers
The Impossible Hour
Le Course en Tete
The Greatest Show on Earth

Are there any others from this era? I would like to see movies like this about Bernard Hinault.


maybe this: Jacques Anquetil The Man, Mystery, Legend

part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3sOezcnHoU

or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ewL8iuQG8&feature=related

and the cyclingtorrents.nl have some great movies
User avatar Capablanca and me
Junior Member
 
Posts: 70
Joined: 24 Jul 2012 08:57

17 Nov 2012 16:33

Ryo Hazuki wrote:real reason is shorter and less difficult stages and most of all globalisation of the sport


absolut agree, GTs need very long, and very hard stages, the Giro 2011 have some
those stage genereate the really gaps, the minutes, and not the seconds
a stage under 130km is a TTT or TT for the oldies :D
User avatar Capablanca and me
Junior Member
 
Posts: 70
Joined: 24 Jul 2012 08:57

17 Nov 2012 16:51

Parker wrote:There's a far greater strength in depth these days. Now you have Americans, Australians, Eastern Europeans, Colombians, Brits, Scandanavians etc..
Back in Merckx's day, even Hinault's, they were very rare. Even Germans were fairly rare.


I've already made a thread to debunk this.

Americans: Jonathan Boyer, Tom Sneddon, Mike Neel raced against Merckx (OK the only nation which really was weak back then)

Australians: Danny Clark, Graeme Gilmore, Don Allan, Gary Clively, Tony Kelliher, Bob Whetters and so many more great trackies raced against Merckx, plus the excellent New-Zealander Bruce Biddle. And Clyde Sefton raced against De Vlaeminck, so did Phil Anderson.

Eastern Europe: OK so the best Eastern Euro of the time was Ruharsz Szukorwski (spelling probably wrong but well), amateur World Champion and Peace Race winner. He raced Paris-Nice twice against Merckx. He was a good rider but no more. Other Polish raced against Western Euros at the Tour of Luxembourg for instance. Never able to mix it up with the likes of Verbeeck or Maertens. Also some very good Easterners defected to the West like Horst Oldenburg (East German) or Jiri Daler. And of course Merckx mixed it up with Easterners in his amateur years.
Oh yeah and in cyclocross, Stybar had forerunners. Notably the mighty Milos Fisera!

Colombians: lol that's a great show of present-day ignorance since the best Colombian ever raced in that period. Martin Emilio Rodriguez better known as Cochise. A complete rider, unlike Herrera. And they even had a Flandrian rider: Giovanni Jimenez. Far better than Duque. And then the climber Rafael Niño.

Brits: LOOOL. Michael Wright, Vin Denson, Barry Hoban, Hugh Porter, Colin Lewis, Leslie West, Bob Cary, Phil Edwards, Phil Corley, ...

Scandinavians: LOL !! Even better: Leif Mortensen, Ole Ritter, Gösta Pettersson, Thomas Pettersson, Sture Pettersson, Erik Pettersson, Knut Knudsen, ...

Germans: hmm the best ever again: Rudy Altig, Dietrich Thurau, Rolf Wolfshohl, Jurgen Tschan, Horst Oldenburg, Dieter Puschel, Sigi Renz, Albert Fritz, Winfried Peffgen, Karl-Heinz Kunde, well there were too many of them to mention, I'm fed up now. More to come if need be.
Echoes
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,976
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:57

17 Nov 2012 17:46

Echoes wrote:I've already made a thread to debunk this.

Americans: Jonathan Boyer, Tom Sneddon, Mike Neel raced against Merckx (OK the only nation which really was weak back then)

Australians: Danny Clark, Graeme Gilmore, Don Allan, Gary Clively, Tony Kelliher, Bob Whetters and so many more great trackies raced against Merckx, plus the excellent New-Zealander Bruce Biddle. And Clyde Sefton raced against De Vlaeminck, so did Phil Anderson.

Eastern Europe: OK so the best Eastern Euro of the time was Ruharsz Szukorwski (spelling probably wrong but well), amateur World Champion and Peace Race winner. He raced Paris-Nice twice against Merckx. He was a good rider but no more. Other Polish raced against Western Euros at the Tour of Luxembourg for instance. Never able to mix it up with the likes of Verbeeck or Maertens. Also some very good Easterners defected to the West like Horst Oldenburg (East German) or Jiri Daler. And of course Merckx mixed it up with Easterners in his amateur years.
Oh yeah and in cyclocross, Stybar had forerunners. Notably the mighty Milos Fisera!

Colombians: lol that's a great show of present-day ignorance since the best Colombian ever raced in that period. Martin Emilio Rodriguez better known as Cochise. A complete rider, unlike Herrera. And they even had a Flandrian rider: Giovanni Jimenez. Far better than Duque. And then the climber Rafael Niño.

Brits: LOOOL. Michael Wright, Vin Denson, Barry Hoban, Hugh Porter, Colin Lewis, Leslie West, Bob Cary, Phil Edwards, Phil Corley, ...

Scandinavians: LOL !! Even better: Leif Mortensen, Ole Ritter, Gösta Pettersson, Thomas Pettersson, Sture Pettersson, Erik Pettersson, Knut Knudsen, ...

Germans: hmm the best ever again: Rudy Altig, Dietrich Thurau, Rolf Wolfshohl, Jurgen Tschan, Horst Oldenburg, Dieter Puschel, Sigi Renz, Albert Fritz, Winfried Peffgen, Karl-Heinz Kunde, well there were too many of them to mention, I'm fed up now. More to come if need be.


And of that whole long list hpow many actually won anything of any note? Altig, Pettersen, Hoban, Thurau and maybe Ritter

You managed to name three North Americans and one Eastern European from that whole period in all races - there have been more teams from those areas in modern races.

In Merckx's last winning Tour in 1974 there were 130 riders. Only six of them came from outside the 'big five' nations.

Nowadays a Brit and a Canadian have won Grand Tours and an Aussie and a Kazakh monuments in just this season.
Parker
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,054
Joined: 04 Mar 2011 01:20

17 Nov 2012 17:53

Echoes wrote:I've already made a thread to debunk this.

Americans: Jonathan Boyer, Tom Sneddon, Mike Neel raced against Merckx (OK the only nation which really was weak back then)

Australians: Danny Clark, Graeme Gilmore, Don Allan, Gary Clively, Tony Kelliher, Bob Whetters and so many more great trackies raced against Merckx, plus the excellent New-Zealander Bruce Biddle. And Clyde Sefton raced against De Vlaeminck, so did Phil Anderson.

Eastern Europe: OK so the best Eastern Euro of the time was Ruharsz Szukorwski (spelling probably wrong but well), amateur World Champion and Peace Race winner. He raced Paris-Nice twice against Merckx. He was a good rider but no more. Other Polish raced against Western Euros at the Tour of Luxembourg for instance. Never able to mix it up with the likes of Verbeeck or Maertens. Also some very good Easterners defected to the West like Horst Oldenburg (East German) or Jiri Daler. And of course Merckx mixed it up with Easterners in his amateur years.
Oh yeah and in cyclocross, Stybar had forerunners. Notably the mighty Milos Fisera!

Colombians: lol that's a great show of present-day ignorance since the best Colombian ever raced in that period. Martin Emilio Rodriguez better known as Cochise. A complete rider, unlike Herrera. And they even had a Flandrian rider: Giovanni Jimenez. Far better than Duque. And then the climber Rafael Niño.

Brits: LOOOL. Michael Wright, Vin Denson, Barry Hoban, Hugh Porter, Colin Lewis, Leslie West, Bob Cary, Phil Edwards, Phil Corley, ...

Scandinavians: LOL !! Even better: Leif Mortensen, Ole Ritter, Gösta Pettersson, Thomas Pettersson, Sture Pettersson, Erik Pettersson, Knut Knudsen, ...

Germans: hmm the best ever again: Rudy Altig, Dietrich Thurau, Rolf Wolfshohl, Jurgen Tschan, Horst Oldenburg, Dieter Puschel, Sigi Renz, Albert Fritz, Winfried Peffgen, Karl-Heinz Kunde, well there were too many of them to mention, I'm fed up now. More to come if need be.


the best colombian rider (cochise) came to europe well in his 30s. even then he was only allowed to work for gimondi except a few giro stages, which he won and trofeo barachin (duo itt with gimondi). there's a notirous intevriew with cochize where he said gimondi used him to literally pull himself up the climbs, by pushing his arms on him and launching himself everytime until chochise couldn't hold it anymore.

besides that's not even the point. the point of globalisaiton is that now there are way ebtter cyclists from all over the world. the brits of today are better than then, same with latin americans, north americans, scandinvaians, australians, germans etc etc :rolleyes:
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,580
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50

17 Nov 2012 18:03

1. Globalization isn't just a matter of nations that were not represented before now are, it is an increase in global cycling popularity which results in a much deeper overall talent pool. The overall level is much higher, so its more difficult to rise head and shoulders above the rest (a la Merckx).

2. Training/diet etc. was much more informal back then. This would lead to much more variation between riders, and the riders doing it "correctly" would see bigger gains. These days everybody knows about anaerobic thresholds, recovery, intervals (no, Sky didn't invent these!), bike fitting, etc. Knowledge has helped level the playing field.

3. Race radios.
silverrocket
Junior Member
 
Posts: 293
Joined: 26 Mar 2009 20:39
Location: Western Canada

17 Nov 2012 18:04

silverrocket wrote:1. Globalization isn't just a matter of nations that were not represented before now are, it is an increase in global cycling popularity which results in a much deeper overall talent pool. The overall level is much higher, so its more difficult to rise head and shoulders above the rest (a la Merckx).

2. Training/diet etc. was much more informal back then. This would lead to much more variation between riders, and the riders doing it "correctly" would see bigger gains. These days everybody knows about anaerobic thresholds, recovery, intervals (no, Sky didn't invent these!), bike fitting, etc. Knowledge has helped level the playing field.

3. Race radios.


But is cycling more popular in Europe now then in the 70s?

And that doesn't account for the fact that the smallest time differences were all from before the 80s.

Merckx never won his Giri titles with 10+ minutes. In 1973 he won the Giro with a 7 minutes and 42 second difference on Felice Gimondi. That's the biggest margin he won with in the Giro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Giro_d%27Italia_general_classification_winners
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
Senior Member
 
Posts: 14,298
Joined: 16 Jul 2010 21:53

18 Nov 2012 00:51

silverrocket wrote:1. Globalization isn't just a matter of nations that were not represented before now are, it is an increase in global cycling popularity which results in a much deeper overall talent pool. The overall level is much higher, so its more difficult to rise head and shoulders above the rest (a la Merckx).

2. Training/diet etc. was much more informal back then. This would lead to much more variation between riders, and the riders doing it "correctly" would see bigger gains. These days everybody knows about anaerobic thresholds, recovery, intervals (no, Sky didn't invent these!), bike fitting, etc. Knowledge has helped level the playing field.

3. Race radios.


yes, knowledge is power (point 2)
and yes ban race radios, because knowledge is power :)
User avatar Capablanca and me
Junior Member
 
Posts: 70
Joined: 24 Jul 2012 08:57

18 Nov 2012 16:13

Parker wrote:And of that whole long list hpow many actually won anything of any note? Altig, Pettersen, Hoban, Thurau and maybe Ritter


Oh I see, a gloryhunter. Documentate please. There are plenty of other stars in my list. Enough fooling yourself. Talking about Eastern Euros or non Euros, you might have been credible but then moving on to the Brits was laughable, then to the Scandinavians was even more and now the Germans well that's beyond imagination. Next what? The Swiss maybe? I'm quite embarrassed here.

Parker wrote:You managed to name three North Americans and one Eastern European from that whole period in all races - there have been more teams from those areas in modern races.


The Polish formed a team in several "open" races in the West.

I named more than one Eastern Euro but one was of particular importance Ruharzs Szukorwski (spelling still probably wrong) because he dominated the field on the other side of the curtain.

Some more: Antoine Trus (Poland), Dieter Wiedemann (Germany; Former GDR), Siegfried Adler (Germany; former GDR), Horst Oldenburg (Germany; former GDR), Maryan Polansky (Stateless; Polish descent?), Jiri Daler (Czechoslovakia), Mieczyslaw Nowicki (Poland), Tadeusz Mitnyk (Poland), Tadeusz Zawada (Poland), Lech Tomaszewski (Poland), Jozef Kaczmarek (Poland), Janusz Kowalski (Poland), Jan Brzezny (Poland), Bernard Kreczynski (Poland), Zbigniew Krzeszowiec (Poland), Wojciech Matusiak (Poland), Miloš Fišera (Czechoslovakia), Pavel Krejčí (Czechoslovakia), Jiri Murdych (Czechoslovakia). All these guys had their chance against the best Western Euros of the time.

Also Stablinski and Graczyk were Polish.

Parker wrote:In Merckx's last winning Tour in 1974 there were 130 riders. Only six of them came from outside the 'big five' nations.


Hey dude, there are dozens and dozens of races other than Bore de France in a cycling calendar. So check out the startlists of all the major classics of the 70's and then we can start the discussion.


Parker wrote:Nowadays a Brit and a Canadian have won Grand Tours and an Aussie and a Kazakh monuments in just this season.


Continental Western Euro standard dropped beautifully.

Ryo Hazuki wrote:the best colombian rider (cochise) came to europe well in his 30s. even then he was only allowed to work for gimondi except a few giro stages, which he won and trofeo barachin (duo itt with gimondi). there's a notirous intevriew with cochize where he said gimondi used him to literally pull himself up the climbs, by pushing his arms on him and launching himself everytime until chochise couldn't hold it anymore.


You sent me that interview by e-mail and I still appreciate that despite the fact you've constantly been spitting your hatred on my face on this forum ever since.

I'm still not convinced that had he come to Europe earlier Cochise could've beaten Merckx on a regular basis. There have been many races where he could race for himself. The Giro is not everything. Better than his Giro stages is his Camaiore GP win in 1973, for me !

Ryo Hazuki wrote:besides that's not even the point. the point of globalisaiton is that now there are way ebtter cyclists from all over the world. the brits of today are better than then, same with latin americans, north americans, scandinvaians, australians, germans etc etc


You'll have to convince me. And that's exactly the point. Parker said that riders from these nations did not exist at that time and I had to react ...

silverrocket wrote:2. Training/diet etc. was much more informal back then. This would lead to much more variation between riders, and the riders doing it "correctly" would see bigger gains. These days everybody knows about anaerobic thresholds, recovery, intervals (no, Sky didn't invent these!), bike fitting, etc.


But for goodness sake, Coppi invented intervals in the forties or at least brought it to cycling. The method gradually improved and generalized but it was totally generalized in the late sixties. Van Kerrebroeck trained on interval, Berten Van Damme trained on interval, the De Vlaeminck's trained on interval since amateur years, Monseré trained on interval in his first year as amateur.

With regards to training and diet, Bobet, De Bruyne, Van Looy, Geminiani, Adorni owe everything to Coppi.

I have an interview of Louis Caput in the Seventies in which he said that everybody then "did the job", which was not the case in the fifties when he raced, and not the case for himself in particular.
Echoes
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,976
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:57

18 Nov 2012 16:45

man I'd rather speak to a brick wall. at least he/she has better arguments
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,580
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50

19 Nov 2012 12:09

Echoes wrote:I've already made a thread to debunk this. . . .
yada, yada, yada.

Ryo Hazuki wrote:man I'd rather speak to a brick wall. . .


Ok, echo, down in front!

I have to wonder what that list of international participants would look like if you made it today. Hmmmm - I'll betcha it would be a LOT longer.

I liked the quip - there are more TEAMS from outside the main European cycling nations today, than there were riders back then. You see, I'm old enough that I remember John Howard. Did the US have a real presence against Merckx? Not really. Certainly not against Anquetil. Boyer and Lemond were the first real contenders to ride in Europe.

But do tell us, please, as a matter of history's sake. How many one-day classics, or short but major stage races did any riders from the US, Columbia, and Oz win, prior to Lemond?
It is of great use to the sailor to know the length of his line, though he cannot with it fathom all the depths of the ocean. ~ John Locke
User avatar hiero2
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,652
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 19:03
Location: In Descartes' reality

19 Nov 2012 14:31

hiero2 wrote:yada, yada, yada.



Ok, echo, down in front!

I have to wonder what that list of international participants would look like if you made it today. Hmmmm - I'll betcha it would be a LOT longer.

I liked the quip - there are more TEAMS from outside the main European cycling nations today, than there were riders back then. You see, I'm old enough that I remember John Howard. Did the US have a real presence against Merckx? Not really. Certainly not against Anquetil. Boyer and Lemond were the first real contenders to ride in Europe.

But do tell us, please, as a matter of history's sake. How many one-day classics, or short but major stage races did any riders from the US, Columbia, and Oz win, prior to Lemond?


How many now? Goss, Gerrans and O'Grady... Nothing to show off about. Considering 2 of those won MSR and the other was from a breakaway.

Does the US have a real presence now? They have Phinney and that's about it anymore these days.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
Senior Member
 
Posts: 14,298
Joined: 16 Jul 2010 21:53

19 Nov 2012 14:35

El Pistolero wrote:How many now? Goss, Gerrans and O'Grady... Nothing to show off about. Considering 2 of those won MSR and the other was from a breakaway.

Does the US have a real presence now? They have Phinney and that's about it anymore these days.


Image
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,580
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50

19 Nov 2012 14:38

Do you ever come up with a real argument Ryo? I bet that dolphin in your avatar is smarter than you.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
Senior Member
 
Posts: 14,298
Joined: 16 Jul 2010 21:53

19 Nov 2012 14:41

Belgians trying to convince the world that pro cycling was already extremely global in the days of Merckx... what else is new.
theyoungest
Senior Member
 
Posts: 12,239
Joined: 11 Jan 2010 14:47

19 Nov 2012 14:44

theyoungest wrote:Belgians trying to convince the world that pro cycling was already extremely global in the days of Merckx... what else is new.


No, not that. Just saying it's still very much a European sport these days.

Less popular in West-Europe(nowadays), but more popular outside of the traditional European cycling countries. I just don't see this supposed internationality of cycling. It's a European sport down to its core.

Australia and Great Britain have made the greatest leaps since the day of Merckx. USA had great cyclists in the past, but now there's few great American cyclists anymore. But then again, a good friend of Eddy Merckx was Tom Simpson. World champion, Ronde van Vlaanderen winner, Giro di Lombardia winner, Milan-San Remo winner and winner of Paris-Nice. Still the best British cyclist they ever had.

There's still very few Asian and African cyclists and that makes up for a large portion of the world population. Even South-Americans are non-existant in Europe except for Colombia.

If UCI was trying to create a global cycling then they failed. No surprise there. :rolleyes:

I'd love to discuss further with you, but I'm afraid you're just going to resort to insults again and bring up my nationality all the time. Doesn't seem you're capable of much more then that. :o

Overall I would say that cycling is more popular now in Western countries. And East-Europeans now get the chance to ride in West-Europe, but they were always cycling, just behind the iron curtain. And Merckx did go there once in his amateur years and beat all their best riders. Very shameful defeat in sport for the Soviet-Russians. :o
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
Senior Member
 
Posts: 14,298
Joined: 16 Jul 2010 21:53

19 Nov 2012 15:02

El Pistolero wrote:Do you ever come up with a real argument Ryo? I bet that dolphin in your avatar is smarter than you.


I;m sure he is
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,580
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50

19 Nov 2012 16:54

hiero2 wrote: Did the US have a real presence against Merckx? Not really.


I'm still waiting for a US successor to Andy Hampsten.

hiero2 wrote:Certainly not against Anquetil.


I don't give a damn about Anquetil. I leave this sad rider to the Frogs, they deserve it, I guess.

hiero2 wrote:Boyer and Lemond were the first real contenders to ride in Europe.


Capital M for LeMond. Boyer raced against Merckx in 1977 and was constantly behind. And after that he had to mix it up with all the former opponents to Merckx + Hinault. Mike Neel and Tom Sneddon raced in Europe.


hiero2 wrote:But do tell us, please, as a matter of history's sake. How many one-day classics, or short but major stage races did any riders from the US, Columbia, and Oz win, prior to Lemond?


For f*** sake, since when do you have to wait a win to assess the international character of a race.

You had riders from Oz, from Columbia, from New-Zealand, from Poland racing against Merckx. They were the best riders of their countries. They were perfectly trained. If they wished to win a major race, all they needed to do is beat Merckx. They did not, so Merckx was the best rider of an intercontinental era. Case closed.

For your information, Sir Hubert Opperman won Paris-Brest-Paris in 1931.

theyoungest wrote:Belgians trying to convince the world that pro cycling was already extremely global in the days of Merckx... what else is new.


A quick look at your username tells me that you know nothing of cycling in the 70's.
Echoes
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,976
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:57

19 Nov 2012 16:58

By the way: Ryszard Szurkowski. It's really not that complicated. :rolleyes:
User avatar Bye Bye Bicycle
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,704
Joined: 28 Sep 2010 04:32
Location: There there.

19 Nov 2012 17:26

Echoes wrote:A quick look at your username tells me that you know nothing of cycling in the 70's.

My username comes from a song I was listening to at the moment I signed up for this forum ;)

But if it gives me perpetual youth, I'll gladly accept.
theyoungest
Senior Member
 
Posts: 12,239
Joined: 11 Jan 2010 14:47

PreviousNext

Return to Professional road racing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: archa55, Armchair cyclist, Arredondo, bala v, BeagRigh, Carols, damian13ster, davebqvst, DFA123, djpbaltimore, drc, elfed68, Elminutobueno, Escarabajo, Flamin, Gigs_98, Google Adsense [Bot], Hugo Koblet, jaylew, JRanton, KyoGrey, Libertine Seguros, malakassis, Marco Pantani, Matt_W, Miburo, Mongolian Torque, Põhja Konn, ray j willings, roundabout, SemirS, SergeDeM, Squirbos_19, Susan Westemeyer, T-Nielsen, TommyGun, TourOfSardinia, wansteadimp, yespatterns, yetiyeti and 242 guests

Back to top