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Stars and Watercarriers

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

19 Nov 2012 18:02

So who would win a fight between a tiger and a lion?

Anyways, the movie is awesome.
User avatar Magnus
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19 Nov 2012 20:13

Yes of course more precise training techniques have existed for a long time (eg. Coppi and intervals), but I maintain that there have been a lot of advancements, and a mainstreaming of said advancements. With internet every cyclist, team, DS can access the latest information and many more scientists are studying athletic performance, and so there is a sort of arms race that every cyclist needs to keep up with. Of course we see this has influenced doping in cycling, but that need not be discussed.

Merckx famously quipped that his suggested training technique for young riders was simply "ride lots". These days we have doctors drawing blood at the top of hills to test lactic acid (my home town does this as an annual event, open to the public), supplements, altitude tents, and so on.

My argument is that this has leveled the playing field by minimizing some of the techniques riders might have formerly used to gain big advantages. Here I am drawing parallels with my other favourite sport, hockey, where the games has seen the same patterns in increasing parity.
silverrocket
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20 Nov 2012 18:10

I've never believed in that quote. Either Merckx said that as a joke or he never said it.

In any case, in his era nobody trained strictly by riding a lot. That was 1930's training. 600km a day at a low pace. Coppi revolutionized this, riding on shorter distances at a higher speed (which was already Francis Pélissier's method but he was ahead of his time, Coppi really influenced later generations), also introducing some early form of interval training.

In Merckx's era, everybody would train on short distance at high speed and on intervals, plus you had power training programmes. Endurance training still existed but was not everything.


Technology has changed but the methods are basically the same.

In any case, you cannot say that training was informal back then. Caput clearly showed that the guys "did the job" seriously in the 70's compared to the 50's where the likes of Magni and Kübler were among the few who "did" it.
Echoes
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20 Nov 2012 19:03

Sean Kelly said on Eurosport commentary this year that the biggest difference between his time & now was the fitness of the WHOLE peleton.
In his day, lots were overweight and out of shape at the start of GT's, but now everyone arrives in or near peak condition.
As I remember him saying.
coinneach
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20 Nov 2012 20:31

coinneach wrote:Sean Kelly said on Eurosport commentary this year that the biggest difference between his time & now was the fitness of the WHOLE peleton.
In his day, lots were overweight and out of shape at the start of GT's, but now everyone arrives in or near peak condition.
As I remember him saying.


Boonen said something very similar not so long ago, but about the start of the season. And I doubt any big rider was starting the Tour out of shape during Sean Kelly's time. But yeah, of course the whole peloton is now fitter than 40 years ago.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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20 Nov 2012 21:48

El Pistolero wrote:Boonen said something very similar not so long ago, but about the start of the season. And I doubt any big rider was starting the Tour out of shape during Sean Kelly's time. But yeah, of course the whole peloton is now fitter than 40 years ago.


well I'm sure sean kelly is lieing :rolleyes:
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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20 Nov 2012 22:14

Ryo Hazuki wrote:well I'm sure sean kelly is lieing :rolleyes:


A cyclist lying.

Image

Ask Kelly about something clinic related and he'll either ignore you or lie.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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20 Nov 2012 22:57

he's an idiot. but he isn't a liar
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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20 Nov 2012 23:08

Ryo Hazuki wrote:he's an idiot. but he isn't a liar


Uhm, I advise you to read a little story about the 1984 Paris-Brussel.

Ps: I never actually called him a liar, even though he is, but was pointing at the fact that maybe someone got the quote wrong. ;)
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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20 Nov 2012 23:16

El Pistolero wrote:Uhm, I advise you to read a little story about the 1984 Paris-Brussel.

Ps: I never actually called him a liar, even though he is, but was pointing at the fact that maybe someone got the quote wrong. ;)


May have got quote wrong?
I think Boonen in Waloon would be as easy for me to understand as Kelly in English:D

Despite the above disparaging comments (well, we are not even in the Clinic;)) I find him an interesting and knowledgeable commentator, though hopeless on drug issues
coinneach
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20 Nov 2012 23:20

coinneach wrote:May have got quote wrong?
I think Boonen in Waloon would be as easy for me to understand as Kelly in English:D

Despite the above disparaging comments (well, we are not even in the Clinic;)) I find him an interesting and knowledgeable commentator, though hopeless on drug issues


Fair enough. :D

It's definitely true that cyclists in the 70s and 80s didn't train much during the winter. In fact, Hinault barely ever trained during the winter(if ever). But to say they weren't even in shape for the start of a GT... That I doubt very much. Contador doesn't train a lot during the winter either, he just gets in shape very fast as we saw at San Luis this year. Overweight yet won 2 mountain stages.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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21 Nov 2012 04:12

Echoes wrote:I've never believed in that quote. Either Merckx said that as a joke or he never said it.

In any case, in his era nobody trained strictly by riding a lot. That was 1930's training. 600km a day at a low pace. Coppi revolutionized this, riding on shorter distances at a higher speed (which was already Francis Pélissier's method but he was ahead of his time, Coppi really influenced later generations), also introducing some early form of interval training.

In Merckx's era, everybody would train on short distance at high speed and on intervals, plus you had power training programmes. Endurance training still existed but was not everything.


Technology has changed but the methods are basically the same.

In any case, you cannot say that training was informal back then. Caput clearly showed that the guys "did the job" seriously in the 70's compared to the 50's where the likes of Magni and Kübler were among the few who "did" it.


Technology has changed the methods. Nobody had heart rate monitors, nevermind power meters, in Merckx's time, for example.

Also the 60s-70s marked a transition in training techniques. Some still were doing the "ride lots", some only trained by racing lots, while some subscribed to the more precise training programs. De Vlaminck said his training goal was simply to ride more than anybody else, with 400km long training rides.
silverrocket
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21 Nov 2012 12:18

El Pistolero wrote:How many now? Goss, Gerrans and O'Grady... Nothing to show off about. Considering 2 of those won MSR and the other was from a breakaway.

Does the US have a real presence now? They have Phinney and that's about it anymore these days.


Tejay Van Garderen did just win the white jersey at the tour (5th overall), as well as 5th at Paris-Nice. Andrew Talansky finished second at the Tour of Romandie and 7th in the Vuelta. Peter Stetina hasn't had a great result yet, but finished 21st at the Giro this past year. Not sure if Farrar can get back to competing in mass sprints or morph into a rider who can compete in the cobbled races, but he's been a solid sprinter in the recent past.

The US presence isn't as big as it was under the group of guys now being ushered out of the sport, but it's as big or bigger then any other time.
kurtinsc
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21 Nov 2012 16:31

DirtyWorks wrote:Again, two things happened simultaneously.
1. Shimano figured out index shifting.
2. Shimano's rear mech meaningfully improved shifting under all conditions.

Shortly after Shimano's solution, there were other index shifting solutions but none as good as Shimano's because Shimano figured out a better rear mech.



Because the Pro Peloton was still riding French and Italian transmissions. Meanwhile Shimano was innovating, not a big player at all in Pro bicycle stuff and stuck on the low-end of bike culture/industry. Index shifting and the mountain bike group changed that. Sometime after, they had the budget to spend on outfitting a Pro Team., etc.
i think you have it a little mixed up. Shimano simply waited for the patent on Suntour's slant-parallel derailleur design to lapse, then copied it. Shimano has, up until very recently, farmed ideas from the dim & distant past and used modern materials technology to made them work.

Cassette hubs - name esxapes me 1930s
Dual Pivot brakes - Universal 1930s
2 piece cranks - Bullseye late 80s
User avatar ultimobici
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21 Nov 2012 18:59

coinneach wrote:In his day, lots were overweight and out of shape at the start of GT's, but now everyone arrives in or near peak condition.
As I remember him saying.


GT's are not everything in cycling.

I see plenty of riders overweight in any race, today.

silverrocket wrote:Also the 60s-70s marked a transition in training techniques. Some still were doing the "ride lots", some only trained by racing lots, while some subscribed to the more precise training programs. De Vlaminck said his training goal was simply to ride more than anybody else, with 400km long training rides.


De Vlaeminck never said that.

The transition is in the 40's/50's when Coppi came up. Then you had every year more riders training with these "more precise training programmes".
Echoes
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21 Nov 2012 20:12

Echoes wrote:GT's are not everything in cycling.

I see plenty of riders overweight in any race, today.



De Vlaeminck never said that.

The transition is in the 40's/50's when Coppi came up. Then you had every year more riders training with these "more precise training programmes".


yes they are. except in belgium

and pls name me overweight riders in grand tours nowdays, save a very few returning from injuries.
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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21 Nov 2012 21:30

Echoes wrote:
De Vlaeminck never said that.



I was paraphrasing, here's a quote explaining why he put in such huge mileage:

“It was important for me to know that I was doing more than the others.”
silverrocket
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21 Nov 2012 22:02

Ryo Hazuki wrote:yes they are. except in belgium

and pls name me overweight riders in grand tours nowdays, save a very few returning from injuries.


Lol, might as well say only the Tour matters then because no one outside real cycling fans and Italy gives a damn about the Giro and the same goes for the Vuelta. Well, a lot of Spaniards don't even care about the Vuelta.

Cavendish has started GTs while being chubby. ;)

Actually, having seen American cycling fans with my own eyes: they don't care about the Giro, they don't care about the Vuelta. They only care for two races: the Tour and Paris-Roubaix.

Anyway what really changed in cycling after the 70s is doping... Read up on Francesco Conconi and Francesco Moser's Hour record of 1994(!).
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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21 Nov 2012 22:53

El Pistolero wrote:
Anyway what really changed in cycling after the 70s is doping... Read up on Francesco Conconi and Francesco Moser's Hour record of 1994(!).


Well doping went on LONG before the 70s. The biggest doping change was EPO/Blood, (in the 90's-00) which, contrary to the size discussion above, actually allowed big men to get up mountains like they were skinny climbers, without even getting out of the saddle.
coinneach
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21 Nov 2012 23:13

coinneach wrote:Well doping went on LONG before the 70s. The biggest doping change was EPO/Blood, (in the 90's-00) which, contrary to the size discussion above, actually allowed big men to get up mountains like they were skinny climbers, without even getting out of the saddle.


Blood doping happened before, so did EPO. Conconi actually introduced EPO into this sport.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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