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Rider Points System

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

Rider Points System

14 Nov 2012 20:22

Purito makes a good point regarding the fact that domestiques receive no points for burying themselves for the greater good of the team. I believe the TEAM should receive points for race results and that a rider's minimum points total should be the team points total. You can then add on individual points for the top tier of riders that win.

I'm sure I've probably missed some of the intricacies of what the point system needs to do. However, this is a TEAM sport, is it not?

Cheers! -Tom
Tommysmo
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14 Nov 2012 20:49

Cycling is not a team sport. Not in the classic sense of the word. Since it's invention, cycling is about workers sacrificing themselves for no obvious benefit. It's the DNA of the sport, just like the part where you need to work together with your opponent to beat him.

Let's not ruin that part just because a prepostrous ranking system needs to be fixed. It will increase the accounting in this sport even more.
User avatar Arnout
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14 Nov 2012 21:06

Tommysmo wrote:Purito makes a good point regarding the fact that domestiques receive no points for burying themselves for the greater good of the team. I believe the TEAM should receive points for race results and that a rider's minimum points total should be the team points total. You can then add on individual points for the top tier of riders that win.

I'm sure I've probably missed some of the intricacies of what the point system needs to do. However, this is a TEAM sport, is it not?

Cheers! -Tom


purito shouldn't whine, if he cares so much about his helpers he should let them kepe their job, he decides, because he has the points. and as arnout said. cycling isn't a teamsport
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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14 Nov 2012 21:35

He's not talking about his helpers, but about Joost Posthuma...
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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15 Nov 2012 01:55

El Pistolero wrote:He's not talking about his helpers, but about Joost Posthuma...

That's right and he's only one example. Amets Txurruka is another. These are examples of guys who rarely win but are respected in the peleton and worthy of World Tour rides.

Yet next year, they won't be getting them because some sub-standard rider from Asia or the Middle East dominated their continental tour against semi-pro's and have enough points to help tip a team into the top 15. These riders are more likely to ride like Mehdi Sohrabi than Daniel Teklehaimanot but they have points, and this is what matters.

From a clinic point of view it's a terrible system too. It sends the message that riders must be strong enough to be effective leaders on their teams - not just strong doms - or they'll lose their contract.

Think of some great domestiques over the last few years - Neil Stephens, Inigo Cuesta, Bert Grabsch, Wim Vansevenant, Eros Poli etc. If this system stays in place guys like them will cease to exist.
How to ride like a Tour champion!

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User avatar 42x16ss
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15 Nov 2012 02:37

The Inner Ring did a good job explaining the system.
http://inrng.com/2012/11/sporting-value-explained/#more-11771
Steve H.
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15 Nov 2012 03:05

42x16ss wrote:That's right and he's only one example. Amets Txurruka is another. These are examples of guys who rarely win but are respected in the peleton and worthy of World Tour rides.

Yet next year, they won't be getting them because some sub-standard rider from Asia or the Middle East dominated their continental tour against semi-pro's and have enough points to help tip a team into the top 15. These riders are more likely to ride like Mehdi Sohrabi than Daniel Teklehaimanot but they have points, and this is what matters.

From a clinic point of view it's a terrible system too. It sends the message that riders must be strong enough to be effective leaders on their teams - not just strong doms - or they'll lose their contract.

Think of some great domestiques over the last few years - Neil Stephens, Inigo Cuesta, Bert Grabsch, Wim Vansevenant, Eros Poli etc. If this system stays in place guys like them will cease to exist.


Exactly, it's just like Matt Brammeier said, domestiques are an endangered species. The points system desperately needs to change. A rider shouldn't find themselves out of a job because they're not one of the top riders in the world that doesn't get a lot of points, and riders shouldn't be hired based on their points. They should be hired based on their skills and what they can contribute to the team, be it a strong domestique for the team leader or a winning rider.
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15 Nov 2012 06:25

Arnout wrote:Cycling is not a team sport. Not in the classic sense of the word. Since it's invention, cycling is about workers sacrificing themselves for no obvious benefit. It's the DNA of the sport, just like the part where you need to work together with your opponent to beat him.

Let's not ruin that part just because a prepostrous ranking system needs to be fixed. It will increase the accounting in this sport even more.


But what you are calling the very DNA of cycling is what is under threat. Nobody will be willing to be a worker because you will bust your gut and then have no reward and will not ride again next season.
If you want a pro level peloton then you need to ensure that there remains a role for workers
User avatar Tigerion
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15 Nov 2012 07:41

Maybe an answer is to only count the points of the top 10-12 riders from each team?

There will still be a need to sign riders with points, but those who don't have any can still be kept on to contribute to the team as a whole.
How to ride like a Tour champion!

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http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...ritish/proof_1


evidence noun [U] uk /ˈev.ɪ.dəns/ us

B2 one or more reasons for believing that something is or is not true

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...itish/evidence
User avatar 42x16ss
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15 Nov 2012 08:15

Tigerion wrote:But what you are calling the very DNA of cycling is what is under threat. Nobody will be willing to be a worker because you will bust your gut and then have no reward and will not ride again next season.
If you want a pro level peloton then you need to ensure that there remains a role for workers


If you're gonna give points for helping, it will mean every team will do a Skytrain or even a Radioshack for the team classification. Doesn't help one bit in terms of entertainment and the end result will stay the same: we will rely on the wildcards even more to spice things up.

The point system should just be ditched, there are barely any obvious candidates for ProTour spots anyway. A new one might be designed, only giving a few points for winning a monument or getting a podium in a GT. Problem solved.
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15 Nov 2012 08:50

Steve H. wrote:The Inner Ring did a good job explaining the system.
http://inrng.com/2012/11/sporting-value-explained/#more-11771


I think this answers all the posts above, read it.

It is already the case that only the top 12 riders from every team count for the sporting value, excluding non-rider dependant collective points. This means there is plenty of room for domestiques on a team's roster, they just have to be good enough to add something without being one of the top-12 riders of that team.

The real problem, as highlighted in the innerring blog Steve mentioned, is that even riders don't know that this is the case and therefore assume that if they don't have points, then they are not going to be hired. This is not true as any team can carry up to 18 'pointless' riders, without it affecting the sporting value of the team.

The secrecy surrounding the arithmetic for the sporting value are backfiring: While it is true that no rider can purely calculate what race to race for points, it seems that important details are not even clear for riders; let alone potential sponsors or fans.
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15 Nov 2012 09:29

El Pistolero wrote:He's not talking about his helpers, but about Joost Posthuma...


joost posthuma no team wanted because he sucks and has bad mentality. has nothing to do with points
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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15 Nov 2012 09:30

WillemS wrote:The secrecy surrounding the arithmetic for the sporting value are backfiring: While it is true that no rider can purely calculate what race to race for points, it seems that important details are not even clear for riders; let alone potential sponsors or fans.

Or journalists:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/11/analysis/tim-duggans-arrival-and-his-points-could-help-saxo-bank-keep-its-spot-in-the-worldtour_265143
Unless his contract was submitted to the UCI deadline of half october, his points are worthless.
janraaskalt
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15 Nov 2012 09:32

42x16ss wrote:Maybe an answer is to only count the points of the top10-12 riders from each team?

There will still be a need to sign riders with points, but those who don't have any can still be kept on to contribute to the team as a whole.


that is already the case :rolleyes:god it annoys me when people have no clue about the facts here (including riders) and listen to whining crybaby cyclists that shouldn't even have a job to begin with. of course brammeier is whining. he knows there's at least 100 riders in ct and pct better than him and only reason he has a job is cavendish.
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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15 Nov 2012 12:24

Uhm, he rode for QS this year and his contract isn't renewed for next season yet Cav rides there next season. So no, the only reason he has a job isn't Cavendish.

1+1=2.

But yeah, there's dozens of riders like Brammeier in the ProTour.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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15 Nov 2012 13:12

El Pistolero wrote:Uhm, he rode for QS this year and his contract isn't renewed for next season yet Cav rides there next season. So no, the only reason he has a job isn't Cavendish.

1+1=2.

But yeah, there's dozens of riders like Brammeier in the ProTour.


then I guess brammeier and cav aren't the best of friends anymore. that's why he's probably whining.
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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15 Nov 2012 14:29

Ryo Hazuki wrote:joost posthuma no team wanted because he sucks and has bad mentality. has nothing to do with points


He himself said part of the reason was the points.

"I have been negotiating with different teams such Vacansoleil, but they had no room. Additionally, there are many teams that need ProTour points and, to be honest, I have none. Teams need points in order to remain in the top tier,"
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15 Nov 2012 14:55

Afrank wrote:He himself said part of the reason was the points.

Of course, if he had 60 RV points, he would get a contract just like the exotic riders at Euskaltel. Hell, even I would get a contract. The reason however is, that of the domestiques without points he was not good enough or too expensive.
janraaskalt
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15 Nov 2012 15:09

janraaskalt wrote:Of course, if he had 60 RV points, he would get a contract just like the exotic riders at Euskaltel. Hell, even I would get a contract. The reason however is, that of the domestiques without points he was not good enough or too expensive.


The reason for him not getting a team is a combination of reasons, one of them is the points, another of them was him not being good enough, another being sick at key moments during this season, another lack of motivation. I think Posthuma could still be capable of being a good domestique though, he did good work for Schleck in the 2011 tour.
User avatar Afrank
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15 Nov 2012 15:20

Afrank wrote:The reason for him not getting a team is a combination of reasons, one of them is the points, another of them was him not being good enough, another being sick at key moments during this season, another lack of motivation. I think Posthuma could still be capable of being a good domestique though, he did good work for Schleck in the 2011 tour.

He cannot blame the lack of points. I could blame my lack of goals in the Premier League for not getting a contract at Manchester City, but the fact is I am not good enough. There a tons of football players without goals who get a contract, just like there a hundreds of cyclists without points who get a contract.

If Radioshack was satisfied with him, he would have gotten a contract extension. Radioshack wasn't looking for points; they hired Devolder, for crying out loud.
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