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women are right!

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

15 Nov 2012 14:22

The Hitch wrote:Oscar sevilla and Felix cardenas are the best climbers in the world?



What is the point of this post? We are trying to compare the times of.vos and Gilbert up the cauberg from the 2012 worlds and you post the time for every other cauberg ascent in history apart.from the relevant ones


Because I couldn't find those times. Though everyone with a little common sense knows she didn't went as fast as Gilbert.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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15 Nov 2012 14:27

Arnout wrote:That's because when it is on telly it's extremely hyped because we happen to have the best woman cyclist at the moment.

Yes, I know it's problematic when facts are introduced in the discussion, certainly when they contradict everything you say. Of course Marianne Vos helps the ratings, but I'm sure Philippe Gilbert and Tom Boonen help the ratings in Belgium...

NOS is very good at only focusing on sports when Dutch athletes compete, and only focus on the Dutch athletes: that's why male cycling coverage is dreadful and many people (not only CN.commers) watch male cycling on Sporza.

Sporza, where they don't focus on Belgian cyclists ;)

Some hardcore cycling fans watch Sporza, yes. But the same goes for the women's race on Sporza...

Remember when the Dutch ladies football (soccer) team was doing well a couple of years back, during a Euro Championship or something. NOS doesn't bother with women football usually, but when there is a bandwagon, they're very eager to jump on it. They broadcast one match, 2 million viewers. After that hype, no-one cares about women soccer anymore.

Long story short: those occasional viewing figures are not representative at all.

Because the Dutch people don't know anything at all about women's soccer. Women's cycling, they're more informed about (if mostly due to our successful history in that segment of the sport) and this generates more interest. As is the case in most sports. That's why the Dutch don't watch shorttrack, and they do watch longtrack speedskating, although the former is very much the bigger sport.
theyoungest
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15 Nov 2012 14:32

El Pistolero wrote:Because I couldn't find those times. Though everyone with a little common sense knows she didn't went as fast as Gilbert.


To lend a line from my dear friends the wiggins and froome fans - you have no proof;)
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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15 Nov 2012 14:48

The Hitch wrote:The problem with your arguments, to all of yous who celebrate that women's cycling is treated poorly and justify your misogyny with- " the demand isnt there, haha " is that demand works both ways.

There is less demand for.women's cycling because the races aren't being shown in the first place. If eurosport didn't show mens cycling i and many others in this country would never have been hooked in the first place. same goes.for.absolutely every sport out there. People don't just wake up and out of the blue say - i want to.be a fan of a sport where people do.this that or the other. The idea has to come.from.somewhere.

Its no coincidence that the sports where male and female competition run together and are broadcast together, are the sports in which women athletes achieve the greatest popular acclaim.

Why is there no demand for women's cycling? Because its not being shown in the first place.


To an extent, you're absolutely right. Again, I don't mind if TV stations choose to show women racing and sure, audience will grow if they show it. It will never be equal though, due to mentioned reasons (just look at interest for female vs male tennis, the most equal sport currently). Thus, demanding equality is, in my eyes, not justified.

theyoungest wrote:Yes, I know it's problematic when facts are introduced in the discussion, certainly when they contradict everything you say. Of course Marianne Vos helps the ratings, but I'm sure Philippe Gilbert and Tom Boonen help the ratings in Belgium...


Sporza, where they don't focus on Belgian cyclists ;)

Some hardcore cycling fans watch Sporza, yes. But the same goes for the women's race on Sporza...


Because the Dutch people don't know anything at all about women's soccer. Women's cycling, they're more informed about (if mostly due to our successful history in that segment of the sport) and this generates more interest. As is the case in most sports. That's why the Dutch don't watch shorttrack, and they do watch longtrack speedskating, although the former is very much the bigger sport.


Of course, I might be wrong. However, it's not because of your facts, as those are so situational that it is statistically rubbish to extrapolate them to a general setting.

I don't think there is a major difference between women cycling and women football though, they are both the female counterparts of the male sport, with a lot less interest but with the same rules. I struggle to see why there would be a lot more interest for female cycling in general (apart from the Vos phenomenon) compared to female football, considering male soccer is way more popular than male cycling.
User avatar Arnout
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15 Nov 2012 15:07

El Pistolero wrote:Because I couldn't find those times. Though everyone with a little common sense knows she didn't went as fast as Gilbert.


that's because you don't have my blog bookmarked:(:p

http://climbing-records.blogspot.ro/2012/09/caubergs-fastest-times-phil-sets-new.html

vos was/is an amazing athlete though.


there are amazing athletes in women cycling too but overall the level is a joke.
Vino 4ever
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15 Nov 2012 15:18

theyoungest wrote:It's such a moronic discussion really. "I only want to watch men's cycling because men are stronger than women". Who the f.ck cares, as long as there is a level playing field? I'd choose the Giro Donne anytime over 90% of men's races.


I think your right. Women's racing, or any womens sport shouldn't be compared to mens sport. The level of a sport is not significant to me. But the competition can be compared.
If there are 1000 full time men pro racers and 60 parttime pro women racers, for me it's fair if the price is lower. If the women race over distances as long as 17 year old boys do, it's fair too. In the Marathon the women can take more time, but run the same length.
I can imagine there is some difference in length. But the differences are too high. To me, the UCI has to make sure half of the WT races has a womens race. If a country has 4 WT events, there should be 2 lady's Tours/one day events. Every monument and every GT a weeklong race. If that happens, women cycling can grow and become more mature. Then I will consider equel payment.
Besides, sport is entertainment. Nobody is saying Madonna and Michael Jackson should earn the samen.
And yes off course I watch Sporza, if you stick with the NOS you never learn anything about cycling. They just **** about doping, not about racing.

Climbing times after 260 and 130k are not to be compared. Still a great accomplishment of Vos though.

Sporza btw focusses on Belgium guys off course, but also on Dutch cyclist. A lot of interviews (same language) and knowedge about Dutch cyclist. If there are 20 Belgiums who can win and 5 Dutch guys, they ignore the Dutch. But if there are 8 Belgiums and 3 Dutch guys, they will talk a lot about the Dutch riders too. Probably because allmost all Dutch pro's ride from their junior years topraces in Belgium and the Sporza people know them better then most Wallons.
Matthijs
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15 Nov 2012 15:39

theyoungest wrote:Didn't Marianne Vos ride up the final climb of the Cauberg at the Worlds in the same time as Philippe Gilbert? Good luck with that.

20 seconds slower, actually.

It's a shame the competition in women's cycling is so low, but if the races actually were televised and the payments increased then obviously more girls would come to the sport, resulting in a higher level of competition. At the moment it's a bit ridiculous that Marianne Vos is by far the best sprinter, climber, puncheur, classics-specialist and CX rider (probably track+MTB as well) in the world. She's an amazing athlete, no doubt, but if there were more competition she obviously wouldn't be able to dominate in all those disciplines simultaneously.
maltiv
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15 Nov 2012 15:41

jens_attacks wrote:that's because you don't have my blog bookmarked:(:p

http://climbing-records.blogspot.ro/2012/09/caubergs-fastest-times-phil-sets-new.html

vos was/is an amazing athlete though.


there are amazing athletes in women cycling too but overall the level is a joke.


Yeah, I was looking through your posts because I knew you kept track of them. :p

I bookmarked it now though.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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15 Nov 2012 15:53

Women belong in the kitchen, not on a bike
User avatar Bavarianrider
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15 Nov 2012 15:56

maltiv wrote:20 seconds slower, actually.

.


Though vos did race the last few laps whereas philbert only showed his face in the last km having sat in.the bunch all.day. With that kind of treatment vos could maybe have gone sun 1.40
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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15 Nov 2012 15:57

The Hitch wrote:Though vos did race the last few laps whereas philbert only showed his face in the last km having sat in.the bunch all.day. With that kind of treatment vos could maybe have gone sun 1.40


Men's race was longer and ridden harder all the way.

If Vos was riding the men's race she would've probably struggled to finish within 5 minutes of Gilbert. The men's race was 140km longer lol... The women's race was ridden at an average of 41km/h. The men's race was ridden at an average of 44km/h.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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15 Nov 2012 15:58

jens_attacks wrote:that's because you don't have my blog bookmarked:(:p

http://climbing-records.blogspot.ro/2012/09/caubergs-fastest-times-phil-sets-new.html

vos was/is an amazing athlete though.


there are amazing athletes in women cycling too but overall the level is a joke.

I wonder how you calculated Vos' time? You can't actually see her crossing the Amstel Gold finish line. You can however see her crossing the overpass, in 1:10, which is about the same time as Gilbert.

And then the final part which took Gilbert 10 or 15 seconds would have taken her 35 seconds to complete... a bit hard to believe, that one.
theyoungest
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15 Nov 2012 16:03

El Pistolero wrote:Men's race was longer and ridden harder all the way.

If Vos was riding the men's race she would've probably struggled to finish within 5 minutes of Gilbert.


Yep she would but im talking about if they tackled the cauberg at equal freshness so to speak. Say if they tackled it without any pre racing. As it was i think vos would have gone into the cauberg more exhausted from her racing than Phil from sucking wheels all.day, even ifhis activity lasted longer.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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15 Nov 2012 16:05

The Hitch wrote:Yep she would but im talking about if they tackled the cauberg at equal freshness so to speak. Say if they tackled it without any pre racing. As it was i think vos would have gone into the cauberg more exhausted from her racing than Phil from sucking wheels all.day, even ifhis activity lasted longer.


She's a great athlete. If she did a more international female endurance sport I'm sure she would also be good at it. But if both were to start fresh at the Cauberg she would just get blown away. It would be interesting to see them match off though. Kinda like happens in tennis from time to time. Perhaps Golazo should organize such an event. :o

The only way to win the men's race was to ride conservative until the last lap though. Female racing is different, less controlled. Less money involved, so bigger risks are taken. That's my take on it anyway. Vos is also much better than the rest of the girls, male cycling is much closer at the top. Yeah Phil is better than Valverde or EBH on such a finish, but only slightly. Vos is MUCH better than the second best girl on the Cauberg. That's why I don't like comparisons between male and female cycling.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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15 Nov 2012 16:20

No, you don't like comparisons between Gilbert and [insert random rider].

Or I guess you do, because every thread turns into this very same comparison.
theyoungest
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15 Nov 2012 16:20

Bavarianrider wrote:Women belong in the kitchen, not on a bike

Ah yes, "ironic" male chauvinism. How novel.
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15 Nov 2012 16:23

theyoungest wrote:No, you don't like comparisons between Gilbert and [insert random rider].

Or I guess you do, because every thread turns into this very same comparison.


Lol, you're the one stating Vos went as fast as Gilbert on the Cauberg. Sorry if I debunked your statements mate. I like to use facts for my arguments instead of trying to get personal.

Feel free to show me any evidence that Vos could hold her own against Phil.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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15 Nov 2012 16:34

This discussion wasn't about Phil, but about whether mr. Ryo Hazuki could be as good as Marianne Vos if he only trained a little. Which is complete nonsense, and that's why I said how fast Vos went up the Cauberg.

The time jens_attacks calculated can't be right, so it's still up in the air whether Gilbert actually went that much faster.
theyoungest
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15 Nov 2012 16:37

theyoungest wrote:This discussion wasn't about Phil, but about whether mr. Ryo Hazuki could be as good as Marianne Vos if he only trained a little. Which is complete nonsense, and that's why I said how fast Vos went up the Cauberg.

The time jens_attacks calculated can't be right, so it's still up in the air whether Gilbert actually went that much faster.


That's not such a strange statement. I do athletics and I'm better at long jump than some female pro's even though I don't train like one.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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15 Nov 2012 16:43

El Pistolero wrote:That's not such a strange statement. I do athletics and I'm better at long jump than some female pro's even though I don't train like one.

That's one explosive effort. How do you match up against a female pro marathon runner?
theyoungest
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