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Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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Re:

05 Jan 2019 22:49

DenisMenchov wrote:You can't seriously count the pursuit stage as a win. He only beat Usiugov and wheelsucked him the whole time. His time was nowhere close to being the fastest.

If that is your reasoning, then I suppose you have no reservations about awarding the pursuit stage win to the inseparable duo consisting of Sundby and 'Majka-jam' ;) ?
"If I had stopped for coffee, they would have done the same. They never got off my wheel." - Fabian Cancellara after Paris-Roubaix 2011.
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Re: Re:

06 Jan 2019 00:44

Cance > TheRest wrote:
DenisMenchov wrote:You can't seriously count the pursuit stage as a win. He only beat Usiugov and wheelsucked him the whole time. His time was nowhere close to being the fastest.

If that is your reasoning, then I suppose you have no reservations about awarding the pursuit stage win to the inseparable duo consisting of Sundby and 'Majka-jam' ;) ?


Yes, they'll do it tomorrow.
craig1985 wrote:And BTW, DenisMenchov, smile a bit.
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06 Jan 2019 11:59

it's staring in 2 minutes. we all know who would have won today, had she been there...

we kind of know who is likely to take 1-2 based on the standings and gaps, but that's far from certain. giving to my habit of playing with numbers, for the 1st time, i googled the contender girls weight/height. here goes....take it for wha's internet is or may be, though, on a sanity check all numbers jive with the tv proportions, imo.

Oestberg: 165 cm, 56 kg
Nepryeyeva170 cm, 63kg
parmakoski: 160 cm, 56 kg
beloroukova 168 cm, 55 kg
diggins: 162 cm, 58kg

i was skeptical of beloroukova until i saw her feather weight.
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Re: Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

06 Jan 2019 14:22

Well as expected Klaebo suffered big time today.
2 Sprints, one 15km race on a fast and easy track, two pointless races in Oberstdorf. Klaebo won the Tour that was tailor made for him.
Krüger was flying today :eek:
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06 Jan 2019 14:37

60 bonus seconds per sprint race and 45 per mass start is way excessive. Especially when there isn't a single race above 15k. What are FIS thinking with the gazillion bonus secs? It aint conducive to an exciting race.
John de Savage
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06 Jan 2019 14:51

Today was brutal in all aspects, let's see who made it too hard in regards the rest of the season.

The conditions didn't make it any easier, i.e. Östberg's time was +3m slower than Weng last year and Röthe's almost 2m compared to Sundby year earlier. The wind made it extra hard and you could see that in some skiers.

Edit. Not sure though if the track was exactly the same as previous years.
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Re: Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

06 Jan 2019 15:41

I agree with the distances. I've said a number of times that they need to go back to the 'roots' and have the short prologue, a classic sprint (though I think they rarely had them in the tour to begin with, the last one being three years ago and before that in 2012. The first year (2007) I think was a good mixture. Sprinting in the Münich Olympic Stadium, then a 20km skiathlon in Oberstdorf, followed by a 15km individual classic, then sprint in Asiago, with the final two races in Val Di Fiemme, a 30km (!!!) classic mass start and the final climb on the last day. That's a healthy mixture of distances and basically 3 classic and 3 skate races.

2010 was the first year they used the 30-35 km point to point Cortina to Toblach handicap race. I think they need to bring that back next year, especially if the snow conditions are good. If they have two sprints, one of them needs to be classic. They can have the individual race after the sprint be classic.

The bonuses, well, that's been around for a while. I don't think they'll change that.
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06 Jan 2019 16:06

a couple of parting afterthoughts...

btw, agree with john, it was my beef for a long time that sprinting bonuses are disproportionately high compared to distance bonuses. really, a multi-day tour should even out the cost of daring.

1. that klaebo did not hold back today is a fair conclusion. would he be a tad faster if he did not have 1:20 to fall back onto ? perhaps, but his suffering was for everyone to see which leads to my 2nd point...
2. Ustiougov would have won today if the russians had organized even a half-azzed team work yesterday. why is it so ? my guess is b/c unlike most teams, they dont have a head national coach on site to tell everyone what to do. technically, vialbe is the head coach but she sits in russia and onsite you have competing groups of 3-4 national team coaches: kramer, borodavko, perevozikov etc. such mess, was NOT possible in the old times, but that's the way it was...in both classic races btw.
3. why klaebo suffered so much on the hill ? his grandpa probably knows, but i am allowed to speculate..for one, he lacks experience. it is very important indeed. Yet i'd guess equally important was perhaps that he's built is as pure a sprinter as the sport probably had seen. northug was of the same mold and despite tonnes of experience he NEVER did anything remarkable. the proportion of fast twitch muscles during an extended high intensity effort probably causes acidosis in such types quicker than those endowned with slow twitches. sort of cavendish parallel to cycling ?
4. i am very happy for oestberg. she was plain superior despite the valiant efforts of the young russians. she's also a nice, humble young lady i can greatly respect unlike some other norwegian girls. a finnish coach in a swedish paper opined today, that her distance successes are due to ...reduction in the size of her thighs :idea: may be. which bring me to my last point
5. watch out for nepryaeva ! she showed incredible aerobic fitness and plenty of sprint skills. imagine, if like oestberg, she reduced her thighs just a tad ?
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in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
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Re: Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

06 Jan 2019 16:22

BullsFan22 wrote:I agree with the distances. I've said a number of times that they need to go back to the 'roots' and have the short prologue, a classic sprint (though I think they rarely had them in the tour to begin with, the last one being three years ago and before that in 2012. The first year (2007) I think was a good mixture. Sprinting in the Münich Olympic Stadium, then a 20km skiathlon in Oberstdorf, followed by a 15km individual classic, then sprint in Asiago, with the final two races in Val Di Fiemme, a 30km (!!!) classic mass start and the final climb on the last day. That's a healthy mixture of distances and basically 3 classic and 3 skate races.

2010 was the first year they used the 30-35 km point to point Cortina to Toblach handicap race. I think they need to bring that back next year, especially if the snow conditions are good. If they have two sprints, one of them needs to be classic. They can have the individual race after the sprint be classic.

The bonuses, well, that's been around for a while. I don't think they'll change that.


Honestly I fear that they will make distances even shorter in the future. Although distances were short the gapswere still pretty huge and apart for place 3 in the mens race there were hardly any interesting Position battles on the last day. Hence I fear that in the logic of FIS this will only mean even shorter distance in the race.

Personally I would design it like this: 6 stages, 2rest days

1. sprint (classic)
2. 15km individual start (freestyle)
rest day
3. sprint (freestyle)
4. 30km individual start (classic)
rest day
5. 15km mass start (classic))
6. 35km handicap start (Freestyle)

World Cup Points for individual stages are only awarded if you finish the last stage.

I think this would be a good compromise between different interests. Pleasing both "old School" and "new School" fans, as well as attracting the skiers to actually compete and finish the race.
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06 Jan 2019 16:36

2019/2020 will look like this:
Lenzerheide Sprint C
Lenzerheide 15k F mass start
Vaduz Sprint F
Toblach 15k F
Toblach 15k C pursuit
Val di Fiemme 15k mass start
Val di Fiemme 9k Alpe Cermis

Ski Tour 2020 will be a bit different:

Östersund 15k F
Östersund 15k C
Are Sprint F
Storlien-Meraker 38k F mass start
Trondheim Sprint C
Trondheim Skiathlon pursuit
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Re:

06 Jan 2019 17:10

Max Rockatansky wrote:2019/2020 will look like this:
Lenzerheide Sprint C
Lenzerheide 15k F mass start
Vaduz Sprint F
Toblach 15k F
Toblach 15k C pursuit
Val di Fiemme 15k mass start
Val di Fiemme 9k Alpe Cermis

Ski Tour 2020 will be a bit different:

Östersund 15k F
Östersund 15k C
Are Sprint F
Storlien-Meraker 38k F mass start
Trondheim Sprint C
Trondheim Skiathlon pursuit


Well so Tour de Ski is very similar to This year.

I like that Tour 2020 program a lot more! Looks solid! Well designed.
Do you know if this will be a full 30km skiathlon?
There's no big Event next year so this Ski Tour in February will be the Peak of the season more or less. I excpect that at Norwegians, Sweds, Finns, Russians will consider this the main Event of the season. Not TDS. This could start an interesting development in my opinion. It might very well be possible that TDS might die in the Long run and be replaced by some sort of a scnadinavian Tour.
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Re:

06 Jan 2019 18:47

python wrote:a couple of parting afterthoughts...

btw, agree with john, it was my beef for a long time that sprinting bonuses are disproportionately high compared to distance bonuses. really, a multi-day tour should even out the cost of daring.

1. that klaebo did not hold back today is a fair conclusion. would he be a tad faster if he did not have 1:20 to fall back onto ? perhaps, but his suffering was for everyone to see which leads to my 2nd point...
2. Ustiougov would have won today if the russians had organized even a half-azzed team work yesterday. why is it so ? my guess is b/c unlike most teams, they dont have a head national coach on site to tell everyone what to do. technically, vialbe is the head coach but she sits in russia and onsite you have competing groups of 3-4 national team coaches: kramer, borodavko, perevozikov etc. such mess, was NOT possible in the old times, but that's the way it was...in both classic races btw.
3. why klaebo suffered so much on the hill ? his grandpa probably knows, but i am allowed to speculate..for one, he lacks experience. it is very important indeed. Yet i'd guess equally important was perhaps that he's built is as pure a sprinter as the sport probably had seen. northug was of the same mold and despite tonnes of experience he NEVER did anything remarkable. the proportion of fast twitch muscles during an extended high intensity effort probably causes acidosis in such types quicker than those endowned with slow twitches. sort of cavendish parallel to cycling ?
4. i am very happy for oestberg. she was plain superior despite the valiant efforts of the young russians. she's also a nice, humble young lady i can greatly respect unlike some other norwegian girls. a finnish coach in a swedish paper opined today, that her distance successes are due to ...reduction in the size of her thighs :idea: may be. which bring me to my last point
5. watch out for nepryaeva ! she showed incredible aerobic fitness and plenty of sprint skills. imagine, if like oestberg, she reduced her thighs just a tad ?



Yes, well the problem for the Russians is that, as you said, they have three distinct, well, four distinct training groups, the three that you mentioned and the fourth is coached by Egor Sorin, an assistant to Cramer for the past few years but now he's the coach of another group. So you have potentially four different philosophies and tactics. They had 10 men to start this tour, effectively only one man was a pure sprinter: Retivykh. Everyone else was either an allrounder or distance specialist.

I read that they worked for Bolshunov yesterday, because he was feeling better than Ustiugov and he needed to try and cut down into Klaebo, but more importantly, create a bigger buffer between himself and climbers like Krüger, Roethe, Spitsov, Sundby, Melnichenko...He did that quite well. The issue today was that he simply cannot climb as well as them. He is too big and strong for such a climb, a lot like Northug and guys like Teichmann or Rickardsson. I think he will get on the podium and may even win it in the future, but right now the final climb isn't his thing. The Norwegian guys that passed him weigh half as much as he does. I still thought he'd hold on for third, but the two that passed him were going fast. Oh well, the focus has been on the world's, so he's more or less on the right path. Bottom line is, Ustiugov lost the tour yesterday. Not sure how Klaebo would have skied had the deficit at the start would have been say, 30-40 seconds less, but Ustiugov lost 1:05 (including bonus seconds) yesterday. Today he beat Klaebo by 1:04. No, not saying that it would have been a sprint to the line today, but Ustiugov had one bad day and that cost him. What cost Bolshunov were the two Oberstdorf races. Minimal bonus seconds in the mass start and lost about 30 seconds (including bonuses) to Klaebo in the handicap pursuit. Those seconds would have been very useful today. Hopefully he learns for the future.

The relays will be between these two countries. Nobody has four strong skiers except Russia and Norway. Italy has basically one distance skier and one sprinter. The Finns have Niskanen and maybe Heikkinen, but he shows up maybe once or twice every two years. The Swedes have had only Halfvarsson and that's about it. The Germans these days are happy to have someone break into the top 20 on a given day. The French have a nice team that on paper, has a strong chance for a podium.

The women's relay could be more competitive, surprisingly. Russia, Norway, Sweden, Finland if Parmakoski is on and Niskanen and Kylloenen are healthy. The US has Diggins and Bjornsen. Caldwell is hit or miss in relays. Brennan and Patterson maaaybe.
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Re: Re:

06 Jan 2019 20:12

BullsFan22 wrote:
python wrote:a couple of parting afterthoughts...

btw, agree with john, it was my beef for a long time that sprinting bonuses are disproportionately high compared to distance bonuses. really, a multi-day tour should even out the cost of daring.

1. that klaebo did not hold back today is a fair conclusion. would he be a tad faster if he did not have 1:20 to fall back onto ? perhaps, but his suffering was for everyone to see which leads to my 2nd point...
2. Ustiougov would have won today if the russians had organized even a half-azzed team work yesterday. why is it so ? my guess is b/c unlike most teams, they dont have a head national coach on site to tell everyone what to do. technically, vialbe is the head coach but she sits in russia and onsite you have competing groups of 3-4 national team coaches: kramer, borodavko, perevozikov etc. such mess, was NOT possible in the old times, but that's the way it was...in both classic races btw.
3. why klaebo suffered so much on the hill ? his grandpa probably knows, but i am allowed to speculate..for one, he lacks experience. it is very important indeed. Yet i'd guess equally important was perhaps that he's built is as pure a sprinter as the sport probably had seen. northug was of the same mold and despite tonnes of experience he NEVER did anything remarkable. the proportion of fast twitch muscles during an extended high intensity effort probably causes acidosis in such types quicker than those endowned with slow twitches. sort of cavendish parallel to cycling ?
4. i am very happy for oestberg. she was plain superior despite the valiant efforts of the young russians. she's also a nice, humble young lady i can greatly respect unlike some other norwegian girls. a finnish coach in a swedish paper opined today, that her distance successes are due to ...reduction in the size of her thighs :idea: may be. which bring me to my last point
5. watch out for nepryaeva ! she showed incredible aerobic fitness and plenty of sprint skills. imagine, if like oestberg, she reduced her thighs just a tad ?



Yes, well the problem for the Russians is that, as you said, they have three distinct, well, four distinct training groups, the three that you mentioned and the fourth is coached by Egor Sorin, an assistant to Cramer for the past few years but now he's the coach of another group. So you have potentially four different philosophies and tactics. They had 10 men to start this tour, effectively only one man was a pure sprinter: Retivykh. Everyone else was either an allrounder or distance specialist.

I read that they worked for Bolshunov yesterday, because he was feeling better than Ustiugov and he needed to try and cut down into Klaebo, but more importantly, create a bigger buffer between himself and climbers like Krüger, Roethe, Spitsov, Sundby, Melnichenko...He did that quite well. The issue today was that he simply cannot climb as well as them. He is too big and strong for such a climb, a lot like Northug and guys like Teichmann or Rickardsson. I think he will get on the podium and may even win it in the future, but right now the final climb isn't his thing. The Norwegian guys that passed him weigh half as much as he does. I still thought he'd hold on for third, but the two that passed him were going fast. Oh well, the focus has been on the world's, so he's more or less on the right path. Bottom line is, Ustiugov lost the tour yesterday. Not sure how Klaebo would have skied had the deficit at the start would have been say, 30-40 seconds less, but Ustiugov lost 1:05 (including bonus seconds) yesterday. Today he beat Klaebo by 1:04. No, not saying that it would have been a sprint to the line today, but Ustiugov had one bad day and that cost him. What cost Bolshunov were the two Oberstdorf races. Minimal bonus seconds in the mass start and lost about 30 seconds (including bonuses) to Klaebo in the handicap pursuit. Those seconds would have been very useful today. Hopefully he learns for the future.

The relays will be between these two countries. Nobody has four strong skiers except Russia and Norway. Italy has basically one distance skier and one sprinter. The Finns have Niskanen and maybe Heikkinen, but he shows up maybe once or twice every two years. The Swedes have had only Halfvarsson and that's about it. The Germans these days are happy to have someone break into the top 20 on a given day. The French have a nice team that on paper, has a strong chance for a podium.

The women's relay could be more competitive, surprisingly. Russia, Norway, Sweden, Finland if Parmakoski is on and Niskanen and Kylloenen are healthy. The US has Diggins and Bjornsen. Caldwell is hit or miss in relays. Brennan and Patterson maaaybe.
many valid points ! also, essentially having 2 leaders from 2 different and competing coaching groups creates objective difficulties when forced to choose the team tactic in a given race.

yet, i find the russian system, formerly known for its authoritativeness, rather strange. they should settle on one head coach while at races. imo, it should be kramer. unequivocally qualified to make the decisions, experienced with stupid journos, speaking english, and above all, he seems personally loyal to vialbe and her russian fed. but that is russia, bullsfan. they cant easily hand over the power to a foreigner who, i hear is a german jew to boot. my source is a former master of sports who is connected to many current actors.
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10 Jan 2019 15:38

Again the women's biathlon far less predictable than the men's, pursuit set up very nicely.
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Re:

10 Jan 2019 22:22

Singer01 wrote:Again the women's biathlon far less predictable than the men's, pursuit set up very nicely.

Indeed. Congrats to Lisa Vittozzi for her first victory :cool:
Riposa in pace, Michele!
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Re: Re:

11 Jan 2019 20:46

Laplaz wrote:
Singer01 wrote:Again the women's biathlon far less predictable than the men's, pursuit set up very nicely.

Indeed. Congrats to Lisa Vittozzi for her first victory :cool:

Not prepared to congratulate loginov due to his past.
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12 Jan 2019 10:47

Just caught up with the Nordic combined from yesterday. Riiber didn't win, wtf.
Also have their ever been Nordic triathlons? Jump, ski, shoot?
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12 Jan 2019 14:10

3 swedish girls on the podium is normal though i thought falla can wedge in...one rarely sees falla so helpless as she looked in the semis.

the guys: i missed why pelle was dq-ed. looked ok to me. the french stampede and the mutual elimination in the final probably prevented what would look like a repetition of the swedish girls example 5 mins earlier. a regrettable misfortune. retivych in 2nd is not luck. i recall his 2018 summer roller skiing finish against pelle where he cleanly out sprinted the italian while both where on the unobstructed parallel tracks.
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in foreign policy there are no eternal friendships or eternal enemies, only eternal interests
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12 Jan 2019 19:36

What's the over/under on Fourcade beating OEB wins record currently.
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Re:

14 Jan 2019 16:58

python wrote:3 swedish girls on the podium is normal though i thought falla can wedge in...one rarely sees falla so helpless as she looked in the semis.

the guys: i missed why pelle was dq-ed. looked ok to me. the french stampede and the mutual elimination in the final probably prevented what would look like a repetition of the swedish girls example 5 mins earlier. a regrettable misfortune. retivych in 2nd is not luck. i recall his 2018 summer roller skiing finish against pelle where he cleanly out sprinted the italian while both where on the unobstructed parallel tracks.

I could not really be bothered to watch the sprints in Dresden in their full coverage, but I did actually catch a glimpse of the Pellegrino incident. His move initially cost Baptiste Gros a LL spot, and it was not okay. So good call to dsq him and show an example that bigger names are not above the rules of the sport.
"If I had stopped for coffee, they would have done the same. They never got off my wheel." - Fabian Cancellara after Paris-Roubaix 2011.
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