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Last world tour spot to be decided between Saxo and Shimano?

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

11 Dec 2012 12:18

Ryo Hazuki wrote:oh yeah? what gt did they win? the kom in vuelta? who the f cares. they didn't perform remarkable at all in the mountains this year. catalunya had it's only mountainstage canceled, which is why albasini could win it anyway.


In the other thread you posted a stage which Albasini won to prove Cancellara is a climber. :rolleyes:

They won a mountain stage and jersey. It's a lot better than coming 20th anonymously like you are suggesting they should do.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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11 Dec 2012 14:44

El Pistolero wrote:They won the mountain jersey plus an (easy) mountainstage in the Vuelta. Of course they weren't a force in the mountains of any GTs, that's not what theyoungest was saying. He said they did remarkably well during mountainous races this season with their line-up, which they did. Albasini in Catalunya, Flèche Wallonne and Tour de Suisse. Clarke in the Vuelta.

I'm of the opinion that someone like Clarke shouldn't be able to win a KoM jersey, but the rules are what they are.



Yeah, they actually won something. How about that.



I'm not even sure Argos can field a team for all 3 GTs.

This year they did two Grand Tours and they were nowhere in the Tour. Their Vuelta selection was fine though they did have some luck with the absence of good sprinters.


I think they are a good fit for the Tour as those 9 dead flat sprint stages need all the sprinters there. Just this year it didn't turn out so well with Kittel struggling. Same with the Vuelta if they take Degenkolb there.

But the Giro has only two (only 1 if Stelvio owns him) stages for Kittel so no point going there. Degenkolb would do better (great chance to hold pink for a day too) but classics and Giro and Vuelta seems like too much. If he was in the team though it would more or less make it acceptable.

Maybe I'm a bit harsh, it's not like the whole 22 teams in a GT help make the race. More often than not a Saur, Andalucia or NetApp will somehow get an invite and go on to contribute nothing.
Ferminal
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11 Dec 2012 14:52

GreenEdge did enough in the Vuelta, if you take away Goss it was easily their best GT. Most interesting thing they did in the Giro is Lancaster being at the top of the prologue for a while and Vaitkus going on a long sprint. Honestly don't remember anything from them in the Tour. At the very least though, on paper they have sprinting depth to send someone competitive to each GT will always be there in TT(T)s and have Albasini, Gerrans, Clarke, Weening, Meyer who can actually challenge in breakaways.
Ferminal
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11 Dec 2012 14:56

Ferminal wrote:Maybe I'm a bit harsh, it's not like the whole 22 teams in a GT help make the race. More often than not a Saur, Andalucia or NetApp will somehow get an invite and go on to contribute nothing.

In reverse: a GT appearance makes PCT team sponsors happy. It is good for lower level cycling.
janraaskalt
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11 Dec 2012 18:49

El Pistolero wrote:This year they did two Grand Tours and they were nowhere in the Tour. Their Vuelta selection was fine though they did have some luck with the absence of good sprinters.


Kittel was their main guy for the Tour and he got sick. Considering that Kittel wasn't able to do anything, Veelers did alright in the first couple sprints.

But it will be difficult for them to contend for stages in at least one of the GT's. Even more difficult if they decide to send both Kittel and Degenkolb to the Tour.
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11 Dec 2012 18:54

Afrank wrote:Kittel was their main guy for the Tour and he got sick. Considering that Kittel wasn't able to do anything, Veelers did alright in the first couple sprints.

But it will be difficult for them to contend for stages in at least one of the GT's. Even more difficult if they decide to send both Kittel and Degenkolb to the Tour.


That's their problem, one rider gets sick(and this is very common during a GT) and they're nowhere.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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11 Dec 2012 19:10

El Pistolero wrote:That's their problem, one rider gets sick(and this is very common during a GT) and they're nowhere.


Then what has OPQS done in the Tour exactly? Leipheimer had his mind elsewhere and the whole team goes clueless. Also Devenyns' results in breakaways weren't even as good as Veelers' in the sprints. Gretsch and Chavanel did pretty similar TT's as well. I think Argos and OPQS will have pretty similar Tour teams, together with Lotto they'll have to do the sprinting. If one of their sprinters is ill, it's mostly game over for them.
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11 Dec 2012 19:17

Pentacycle wrote:Then what has OPQS done in the Tour exactly? Leipheimer had his mind elsewhere and the whole team goes clueless. Also Devenyns' results in breakaways weren't even as good as Veelers' in the sprints. Gretsch and Chavanel did pretty similar TT's as well. I think Argos and OPQS will have pretty similar Tour teams, together with Lotto they'll have to do the sprinting. If one of their sprinters is ill, it's mostly game over for them.


Are you really comparing Argos to OPQS? OPQS had a very successful season up to the Tour because their team had depth. Argos only has 2 riders that can win races.

Tony Martin: time trials and stage races.
Mark Cavendish: sprints.
Tom Boonen: cobbled classics.
Sylvain Chavanel: cobbled classics and stage hunter in GT(s).

And many more riders from OPQS who are capable of winning a couple of races each season.

Yeah, really comparable there. :rolleyes:

But why are you bringing OPQS up anyway? We're talking about Argos.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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11 Dec 2012 19:53

Afrank wrote:But it will be difficult for them to contend for stages in at least one of the GT's. Even more difficult if they decide to send both Kittel and Degenkolb to the Tour.


I think I've heard recently that 2013 only Degenkolb will do the Tour. That leaves Kittel for the Vuelta and either of them or/and RJvR for the Giro. So I see no problem there. They will be able to win stages in all three GTs.

I really don't get all the hate here for Argos. They have won countless races and will do so in the future. They have signed some of the most interesting U23 and CT talents. They are absolutely scandal-free so far. What's not to like about them?
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11 Dec 2012 20:02

Bye Bye Bicycle wrote:I think I've heard recently that 2013 only Degenkolb will do the Tour. That leaves Kittel for the Vuelta and either of them or/and RJvR for the Giro. So I see no problem there. They will be able to win stages in all three GTs.

I really don't get all the hate here for Argos. They have won countless races and will do so in the future. They have signed some of the most interesting U23 and CT talents. They are absolutely scandal-free so far. What's not to like about them?


Boring as sh!t.

(although I liked Degenkolb at Tours, and I think I saw some action from Koen De Kort at Dwars door Vlaanderen)
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
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11 Dec 2012 20:10

Guys, I picked on GreenEdge because they have an almost totally sprints-oriented roster, with only a couple of guys for hilly and medium mountain events to temper that. I actually am a fan of Simon Clarke's and think he could, no, should be better than Gerrans in a couple of years. Hell, this last offseason I was claiming he was already better than Gerrans, but I was wrong because Gerrans rediscovered some of his nose for victory from the Cervélo days. I don't like Gerrans, but at least this year he's turned into the rider he should be, rather than a guy who sits in the pack, comes 7th in the uphill sprint at the end of an Ardennes race and then gets called a major threat for the win because of it.

But this is part of why they were named.

País Vasco 2012
Best finisher: Daryl Impey (63rd at 26'48)
Teams classification: 19th and last (at 1'22'45")

Giro d'Italia 2012
Best finisher: Fumiyuki Beppu (121st at 4'06'56")
Number of finishers: 4
Teams classification: 22nd and last (at 10'22'40")

Dauphiné 2012
Best finisher: Pieter Weening (11th at 3'35")
Teams classification: 18th (at 1'09'49")

Tour de Suisse 2012
Best finisher: Allan Davis (58th at 50'07")
Number of finishers: 2
Teams classification: DNF (not enough finishers)

Tour de France 2012
Best finisher: Pieter Weening (72nd at 2'17'30")
Teams classification: 21st (at 5'39'29")*

*for reference, Argos-Shimano were a further 2 hours down and their best GC rider was Koen de Kort, 103rd and more than 40 minutes behind Weening)

GreenEdge were not visible in hilly races except for those intermediate enough for Gerrans or Albasini to make an impact, or those in the Vuelta when Clarke was compiling his GPM points. They were otherwise an irrelevance, with few capable stagehunters in anything too mountainous, and no potential GC candidates. This rendered their participation at races like País Vasco utterly pointless.

Argos already contribute next to nothing to any race that they wouldn't already be invited to anyway. All of the races that Argos can contribute to, they already get invited to (and they already get invited to a bunch that they do nothing at too). It absolutely is Euskaltel-at-Roubaix level idiotic. Some people say that Euskaltel really ought to be a ProContinental team, and they're probably right. But anybody who claims that about Euskaltel should also be willing to state the same about Argos and, depending on how visceral their complaints are, GreenEdge too.
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11 Dec 2012 20:48

El Pistolero wrote:Are you really comparing Argos to OPQS? OPQS had a very successful season up to the Tour because their team had depth. Argos only has 2 riders that can win races.

Tony Martin: time trials and stage races.
Mark Cavendish: sprints.
Tom Boonen: cobbled classics.
Sylvain Chavanel: cobbled classics and stage hunter in GT(s).

And many more riders from OPQS who are capable of winning a couple of races each season.

Yeah, really comparable there. :rolleyes:

But why are you bringing OPQS up anyway? We're talking about Argos.


You were talking grand tours and people getting sick/injured, not about the classics. GT-wise OPQS wasn't very good.
I'm also curious about Janse van Rensburg, he's got classics potential as well. Argos have several young guys who have yet to show their full potential.
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11 Dec 2012 20:58

Pentacycle wrote:You were talking grand tours and people getting sick/injured, not about the classics. GT-wise OPQS wasn't very good.
I'm also curious about Janse van Rensburg, he's got classics potential as well. Argos have several young guys who have yet to show their full potential.


People can get sick during the classics as well. I was speaking about GTs in particular, but really Argos lacks depth all across the board, not just in GTs. And you also ignored the fact they have Cavendish know who has won multiple Tour stages since 2008. Tony Martin is also a lot better than anything Argos has for the time trials. ;)

A lot of teams have several young guys with potential. I don't know the average age of the OPQS team, but it will be very low.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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11 Dec 2012 21:05

Bye Bye Bicycle wrote:I think I've heard recently that 2013 only Degenkolb will do the Tour. That leaves Kittel for the Vuelta and either of them or/and RJvR for the Giro. So I see no problem there. They will be able to win stages in all three GTs.

I really don't get all the hate here for Argos. They have won countless races and will do so in the future. They have signed some of the most interesting U23 and CT talents. They are absolutely scandal-free so far. What's not to like about them?


I think I heard somewhere that Kittel and Degenkolb might both do the Tour, I might be wrong about that though.

I'd say some of the hate for Argos probably has to do with, like Netserk said, them being kind of a boring team. And also partly due to Argos being in competition with Saxo for the WT spot before it was announced. Personally I've got no problem with them, I think they deserve to be in the world tour, Degenkolb is a great talent, and I hope they can develop Barguil and their other young talents.
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