Log in:  

Register

Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?

Poll ended at 23 Jan 2013 21:19

Boonen
76
52%
Cancellara
70
48%
 
Total votes : 146

08 Dec 2012 21:32

Netserk wrote:I didn't say that, and it isn't my opinion. It is *you* who used Evans as example, and I just showed why he isn't comparable with Thomas. Ten years ago was December 2002 *after* Evans' Giro performance....


Yes you are saying that you are saying that in this post even.

The argument is about whether riders coming from different sports have later improvements.
I used Evans as an example of a rider who comes from another sport and improves into his 30's.
And yet you are insisting that we cant use Evans because he is better.

So even if you were merely using the "Evans almost won the giro" comment to show off that you watched the race or whatever, in the context of the actual discussion , your insistence that Evans cannot be used as a comparison because he is better comes acrross as making the point that weaker riders dont improve.

Because you are introducing the variable of "ability" into the question.

Either way, if you really do believe that Thomas cant follow the same improvement pattern as Evans because he isnt as good a rider, then take a look at wiggins.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
Senior Member
 
Posts: 25,706
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 10:58
Location: London.

08 Dec 2012 21:54

the hitch wrote:
netserk wrote:
the hitch wrote:
netserk wrote:
the hitch wrote:
netserk wrote:
the hitch wrote:so.if i said to you 10 years ago that cadel evans, coming from.mtb still has potential. You would have argued till the cows came.home.that he is an.overated anglophone who woll never get those years back?


the rider who was close to win the giro as a 25 year old?


yeah .and thomas is 26. Evans improved so why is it seen as so obsurd that thomas can improve?


and thomas was leading p-r with 15 km to go last year?


dude are you for real? Riders who arent already contending for the top races cant improve? Only riders who are actually in with a shot for a monument or gt can experience "improvement" everyone else is doomed to remain at the same level for the rest of their careers?

This is honestly the dumbest thing i ever heard on the forum and that includes stuff pistrollero said?


i didn't say that, and it isn't my opinion. It is *you* who used evans as example, and i just showed why he isn't comparable with thomas. Ten years ago was december 2002 *after* evans' giro performance....


yes you are saying that you are saying that in this post even.

The argument is about whether riders coming from different sports have later improvements.
I used evans as an example of a rider who comes from another sport and improves into his 30's.
And yet you are insisting that we cant use evans because he is better.

So even if you were merely using the "evans almost won the giro" comment to show off that you watched the race or whatever, in the context of the actual discussion , your insistence that evans cannot be used as a comparison because he is better comes acrross as making the point that weaker riders dont improve.

Because you are introducing the variable of "ability" into the question.

Either way, if you really do believe that thomas cant follow the same improvement pattern as evans because he isnt as good a rider, then take a look at wiggins.


Difference is that Evans improved from being a 25 year old close to win the Giro -> Tour winner.

If Thomas improved similarly he would go from 64th to ~20th.

And it didn't come across as if you meant *that* as improvement...

Bottom line yes he can improve. But no way he will reach the level of Boom or Phinney ;)
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
User avatar Netserk
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,020
Joined: 30 Apr 2011 13:10
Location: Denmark

09 Dec 2012 01:12

Pentacycle wrote:Yup. That's why this thread is so useless. Even if you determine who the best cobble rider is, you're still gonna watch next spring who can win the big classics. There aren't many certainties in cycling, a lot can happen in the coming four months.


Everything we do on here is useles--especially during the off season! Now I'm off to vote in more polls.
User avatar mr. tibbs
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,869
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 19:48
Location: Austin, TX

09 Dec 2012 01:23

Netserk wrote:Difference is that Evans improved from being a 25 year old close to win the Giro -> Tour winner.



And wiggins improved from being someone who would struggle to finish in the top half of Letappe du Tour to a TDF winner:rolleyes:

And no way is G only the 62nd best PR rider.
He came 2nd in the TDF stage (positioning cant be that bad when the other 5 riders in the group were 3 gt contenders and the 1-2 from PR that year:rolleyes:)
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
Senior Member
 
Posts: 25,706
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 10:58
Location: London.

09 Dec 2012 01:45

Got bored with the back and forward....anyway; I went for Boonen but only just, I think they are pretty equally matched on the cobbled classics ( and that's we're talking about) each has had their day. Now if we could get a year where both were healthy and the weather played it's spring games, wet...cold...nasty then we'd see the true champion between them, the Flahute! I think Boonen would take it
I'm in shape...Round is a shape
Unashamed Contador Fanboy

http://www.justcycling.myfastforum.org
User avatar Siriuscat
Junior Member
 
Posts: 749
Joined: 24 May 2010 21:39
Location: North East Scotland

09 Dec 2012 02:20

Ryo Hazuki wrote:boonen is definitely not better in positioning himself. cancellara is probably the best placer and steerer in the entire peloton, save perhaps sagan


Yeah, I can still vividly recall Cancellara's demonstration of his bike handling during the Olympic road race. Wasn't the best "steerer" around that corner, that's for sure.
silverrocket
Junior Member
 
Posts: 293
Joined: 26 Mar 2009 20:39
Location: Western Canada

09 Dec 2012 02:34

silverrocket wrote:Yeah, I can still vividly recall Cancellara's demonstration of his bike handling during the Olympic road race. Wasn't the best "steerer" around that corner, that's for sure.


Yeah, Cancellara is a terrible bike handler. That's why he was almost dropping Nibali (one of the best descender's in the peloton) on the descent of the poggio in MSR this year. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9UpH7OCefM
Be the Goat

Fabio Aru: "si muore sulla bici"
User avatar Afrank
Senior Member
 
Posts: 9,050
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 21:58
Location: Oregon

09 Dec 2012 10:36

silverrocket just got owned
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,068
Joined: 31 Mar 2010 13:50

09 Dec 2012 12:28

Afrank wrote:Yeah, Cancellara is a terrible bike handler. That's why he was almost dropping Nibali (one of the best descender's in the peloton) on the descent of the poggio in MSR this year. :rolleyes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9UpH7OCefM


Nibali is one of the best descenders for a lightweight. He wouldn't be able to follow Hushovd on a descent. I wouldn't call him the best positioner or steerer even if he's good at it.

If he really was the best he wouldn't have crashed so awkwardly during the Olympics. Riding without your hands on the handlebars in the feed-zone of the Ronde this year wasn't very smart either. Though I do not think he's bad at steering or positioning at all, but let's look at the full picture before you call him the best at something. ;)

He was also riding in a lost position at the Koppenberg in 2009 before his chain snapped while Boonen was riding at the front.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
Senior Member
 
Posts: 14,298
Joined: 16 Jul 2010 21:53

09 Dec 2012 15:07

El Pistolero wrote:Nibali is one of the best descenders for a lightweight. He wouldn't be able to follow Hushovd on a descent. I wouldn't call him the best positioner or steerer even if he's good at it.

If he really was the best he wouldn't have crashed so awkwardly during the Olympics. Riding without your hands on the handlebars in the feed-zone of the Ronde this year wasn't very smart either. Though I do not think he's bad at steering or positioning at all, but let's look at the full picture before you call him the best at something. ;)

He was also riding in a lost position at the Koppenberg in 2009 before his chain snapped while Boonen was riding at the front.


Silverrocket said bike handler though, and he has shown countless times he is a excellent bike handler. I don't think his crash at the Olympics automatically means he's not a good bike handler or steerer. Everyone crashes, no matter how good a bike handler or steerer the rider is. I don't know if I would call him the outright best of the best, but he's definitely up there with the top bike handlers.

And wasn't his crash at RVV because someone dropped a bottle? I don't remember hearing anything about him having his hands off the bars.
Be the Goat

Fabio Aru: "si muore sulla bici"
User avatar Afrank
Senior Member
 
Posts: 9,050
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 21:58
Location: Oregon

09 Dec 2012 15:10

reading all of this...damn how much i want het volk to come!
and of course a muddy roubaix!!
Vino 4ever
User avatar jens_attacks
Senior Member
 
Posts: 12,142
Joined: 08 Sep 2009 18:00

09 Dec 2012 15:17

El Pistolero wrote:Nibali is one of the best descenders for a lightweight. He wouldn't be able to follow Hushovd on a descent. I wouldn't call him the best positioner or steerer even if he's good at it.

If he really was the best he wouldn't have crashed so awkwardly during the Olympics. Riding without your hands on the handlebars in the feed-zone of the Ronde this year wasn't very smart either. Though I do not think he's bad at steering or positioning at all, but let's look at the full picture before you call him the best at something. ;)

He was also riding in a lost position at the Koppenberg in 2009 before his chain snapped while Boonen was riding at the front.


Saying that cancellara is not a great bike handler because he had a crash is like sayonv that cav isnt a great sprintee because he lost a sprint.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
Senior Member
 
Posts: 25,706
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 10:58
Location: London.

09 Dec 2012 15:17

Afrank wrote:Silverrocket said bike handler though, and he has shown countless times he is a excellent bike handler. I don't think his crash at the Olympics automatically means he's not a good bike handler or steerer. Everyone crashes, no matter how good a bike handler or steerer the rider is. I don't know if I would call him the outright best of the best, but he's definitely up there with the top bike handlers.

And wasn't his crash at RVV because someone dropped a bottle? I don't remember hearing anything about him having his hands off the bars.


I've been at the feed-zone of a classic a couple of times, there's lot's of bottles on the ground. If you ride over them they normally "pop" open. But some are sturdier, but still shouldn't be a problem when you ride over it with your hands on the handlebar. Cancellara was holding a bag of supplies when he crashed. He should've let a domestique do that for him.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
Senior Member
 
Posts: 14,298
Joined: 16 Jul 2010 21:53

09 Dec 2012 17:11

Siriuscat wrote:Got bored with the back and forward....anyway; I went for Boonen but only just, I think they are pretty equally matched on the cobbled classics ( and that's we're talking about) each has had their day.



What we're talking about is who is the better on the cobbles, which is not the same as who is the best in the cobbled classics.

You don't need to be technically the best on the cobbles to win Paris-Roubaix.
Echoes
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,840
Joined: 08 Oct 2009 17:57

09 Dec 2012 17:35

The Hitch wrote:Saying that cancellara is not a great bike handler because he had a crash is like sayonv that cav isnt a great sprintee because he lost a sprint.


We were discussing who was better at positioning and strategy in races, and I made the claim that Boonen was better at this than Cancellara. I still maintain this, as bike handling and descending are completely different things. Ryo countered by saying Cancellara is one of the best at"placing and steering", and I joked that he wasn't exactly the best at "steering" going around that corner in the Olympics. Cancellara himself said it was a case of bad bike handling.

That's what was said. A few posts later people are angrily telling me how great a descender Cancellara is, and now Hitch is mocking me for something I never said, that Cancellara is "not a great bike handler" because he had that crash.

A few people here need to settle down a bit before they respond.
silverrocket
Junior Member
 
Posts: 293
Joined: 26 Mar 2009 20:39
Location: Western Canada

09 Dec 2012 18:19

silverrocket wrote:We were discussing who was better at positioning and strategy in races, and I made the claim that Boonen was better at this than Cancellara. I still maintain this, as bike handling and descending are completely different things. Ryo countered by saying Cancellara is one of the best at"placing and steering", and I joked that he wasn't exactly the best at "steering" going around that corner in the Olympics. Cancellara himself said it was a case of bad bike handling.

That's what was said. A few posts later people are angrily telling me how great a descender Cancellara is, and now Hitch is mocking me for something I never said, that Cancellara is "not a great bike handler" because he had that crash.

A few people here need to settle down a bit before they respond.


Im not mocking anyone. People are calling into question Cancellara being the best bike handler because of 1 crash and i am ridiculing the idea.

Maybe " a few people" need to stop taking a discussion among anonymous posters on the internet personally.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
Senior Member
 
Posts: 25,706
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 10:58
Location: London.

09 Dec 2012 18:27

So for those who voted Cancellara as best overall cobbled classic rider up until now(that was the OP's point) how do you explain Boonen winning more?

And please don't start with "he's a sprinter".

Paris-Roubaix 2005: Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2005: Boonen won solo.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2006: Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2007: despite a crash he still finishes almost a minute before Cancellara.
Paris-Roubaix 2007: breakaway survives. Boonen is the strongest man of the favorites. Cancellara gets dropped.
Paris-Roubaix 2008: heavy battle between Ballan, Boonen and Cancellara. Boonen controlled the whole race and had the most energy left. Won the sprint by 30 bike lengths or something. Boonen is fast, but Cancellara normally isn't that slow. He was cramping up till behind his ears. ;)
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2009: Boonen easily the strongest man in the race together with "the shadow" Pippo Pozzato. His teammate Devolder wins because of that.
Paris-Roubaix 2009: Boonen won solo.
Paris-Roubaix 2012: Boonen won solo. Cancellara was not there.

E3 Prijs Vlaanderen 2006: Boonen wins in a sprint against Ballan. Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Gent-Wevelgem 2003: Boonen finished third in a group of 3. Cancellara finishes more than a minute back on Boonen.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
Senior Member
 
Posts: 14,298
Joined: 16 Jul 2010 21:53

09 Dec 2012 18:36

El Pistolero wrote:So for those who voted Cancellara as best overall cobbled classic rider up until now(that was the OP's point)


It was? If that was his point then why did he start this thread? It would be utterly pointless.
"The likelihood of cheats succeeding in the London Olympics is somewhat remote." - David Howman, WADA Director General
18-Valve. (pithy)
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,151
Joined: 04 May 2011 12:50

09 Dec 2012 18:46

Miburo wrote:Clearing up the issue of 'right now'.

The aim of this thread is 'who do you think is the overall better cobblestone rider' based on their performances until now. So not just who is right now better.

By that logic Wiggins is a better GC rider than AS.


.......................
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
Senior Member
 
Posts: 14,298
Joined: 16 Jul 2010 21:53

09 Dec 2012 19:00

El Pistolero wrote:So for those who voted Cancellara as best overall cobbled classic rider up until now(that was the OP's point) how do you explain Boonen winning more?

And please don't start with "he's a sprinter".

Paris-Roubaix 2005: Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2005: Boonen won solo.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2006: Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2007: despite a crash he still finishes almost a minute before Cancellara.
Paris-Roubaix 2007: breakaway survives. Boonen is the strongest man of the favorites. Cancellara gets dropped.
Paris-Roubaix 2008: heavy battle between Ballan, Boonen and Cancellara. Boonen controlled the whole race and had the most energy left. Won the sprint by 30 bike lengths or something. Boonen is fast, but Cancellara normally isn't that slow. He was cramping up till behind his ears. ;)
Ronde van Vlaanderen 2009: Boonen easily the strongest man in the race together with "the shadow" Pippo Pozzato. His teammate Devolder wins because of that.
Paris-Roubaix 2009: Boonen won solo.
Paris-Roubaix 2012: Boonen won solo. Cancellara was not there.

E3 Prijs Vlaanderen 2006: Boonen wins in a sprint against Ballan. Cancellara wasn't in the final group with Boonen.
Gent-Wevelgem 2003: Boonen finished third in a group of 3. Cancellara finishes more than a minute back on Boonen.


Canc had a flat tire in roubaix '05 and bringing up '09 is ridiculous. Canc wasn't near 100% at that point. It's way worse than bringing up Boonen '11 for example.

It ****es me off though, boonen should have won at least 1 RVV in 08 or 09.

Paris-roubaix '07: Boonen was indeed clearly the best. He should have won that race too. That's why you should never let a break of 20 guys go in roubaix.
User avatar Miburo
Senior Member
 
Posts: 5,347
Joined: 29 Jul 2012 19:33

PreviousNext

Return to Professional road racing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: blaxland, Carols, Eshnar, Fernandez, Geraint Too Fast, Google Adsense [Bot], Hugo87, Jspear, LaFlorecita, Maaaaaaaarten, maltiv, The Tristero, Verious and 28 guests

Back to top