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Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?

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Better Cobblestone rider: Boonen or Cancellara?

Poll ended at 23 Jan 2013 21:19

Boonen
76
52%
Cancellara
70
48%
 
Total votes : 146

11 Dec 2012 09:16

trompe le monde wrote:In some ways, the poll is unfair. Take away cobblestone ability from Boonen and you are left with a milquetoast husk that has no other reason for cycling.
Take away cobblestone ability from Cancellara and you still have currently one of the best time trialistists, classics winner, Strade Bianchi winner, Tour de Suisse winner and countless other accolades. Cancellara the cyclist has much more well rounded capability than Boonen. Boonen merely exists for 8 calendar days in the year.

Yes, I know its a digression and not the point of the thread. But I find it hard to think of Boonen as an equal or better than Cancellara at anything....except for maybe unintenionally doing coke. Boonen's got Cancellara beat on that.


I will grab some popcorn and read everything el calimero will write starting... now!
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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11 Dec 2012 09:21

El Pistolero wrote:Tour de Suisse route had no mountains in it just so Cancellara could win his home Tour. A mountainous country with no mountains in its national Tour... I hope you're not that naive.

You were the one saying Boonen only performed in the cobbled classics, so don't moan when I give you evidence he doesn't. And that includes the Belgian Championship. Which takes place in June, without cobbles. Enough logic for you?

By your logic the discussion is closed because Cancellara is irrelevant on cobbles. Remember, didn't win an important race since 2010.


Results 1 Michael Albasini (Swi) Team Columbia - Highroad 5:24:04
2 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank
3 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre - N.G.C.
4 Olivier Zaugg (Swi) Liquigas
5 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha
6 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas
7 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank
8 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana
9 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale
10 Maxime Monfort (Bel) Team Columbia - Highroad

1 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia - Highroad 4:56:41
2 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas 0:00:02
3 Peter Velits (Svk) Team Milram 0:00:07
4 Olivier Zaugg (Swi) Liquigas
5 Eros Capecchi (Ita) Fuji-Servetto
6 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank
7 Rui Alberto Faria (Por) Caisse d'Epargne
8 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha
9 Tony Martin (Ger) Team Columbia - Highroad
10 Chris Anker Sörensen (Den) Team Saxo Bank

1 Tony Martin (Ger) Team Columbia - Highroad 4:12:31
2 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre - N.G.C.
3 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:02
4 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale
5 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia - Highroad
6 Rein Taaramae (Est) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne
7 Andreas Klöden (Ger) Astana
8 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas
9 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Team Katusha
10 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank
11 Rui Alberto Faria (Por) Caisse d'Epargne 0:00:08
12 Michael Albasini (Swi) Team Columbia - Highroad
13 Maxime Monfort (Bel) Team Columbia - Highroad 0:00:19
14 Eros Capecchi (Ita) Fuji-Servetto 0:00:37
15 Damien Monier (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne 0:01:01

look at those names he's with up there on the climbs that year. boonen could do the same? look, he beat even one of your countrymen, monfort up crans montana :o
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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11 Dec 2012 09:22

Zam_Olyas wrote:Cats round here wants and feels the need to win an internet discussion, which can be hilarious and annoying for others.


especially el calimero, who even stays up all night to have the last word in an internet discussion :o I hope he's jobless for his boss' sake, as I'm sure not even boonen would lose any sleep over this topic, unlike him
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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11 Dec 2012 09:50

El Pistolero wrote:
When someone makes a racial comment do you also say "you have your opinion and I have mine"? Just curious.


Are you seriously comparing saying cancellara is better than boonen to racism?
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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11 Dec 2012 09:54

The Hitch wrote:No i actually do think goss is a superior sprinter to boonen and as ridiculous as it may sound to you im far from the only one.

your comment on the other hand is totally irrational caused by your well known hate for cancellara.


My comment was a joke, hence the emoticon. I don't hate Cancellara. But you were/are dead serious about Goss, that's what makes it so funny. Fact that you quote me without the emoticon says a lot Hitch. :p

Ryo Hazuki wrote:especially el calimero, who even stays up all night to have the last word in an internet discussion :o I hope he's jobless for his boss' sake, as I'm sure not even boonen would lose any sleep over this topic, unlike him


I was writing my thesis. My promotor doesn't seem to mind me working at night. Not hard to post on a forum at the same time. Students staying up all night might sound strange to you, but it isn't Ryo.

The Hitch wrote:Are you seriously comparing saying cancellara is better than boonen to racism?


Nope, wasn't a discussion about who was better. It was a discussion about Boonen being a rider who only rides for 8 days a year. That's an opinion that is just as wrong as any other opinion based on fact-less statements. ;)

I don't actually mind if he thinks Cancellara is better, but at least use a real reason instead of made up nonsense.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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11 Dec 2012 09:57

El Pistolero wrote:Actually stating Boonen only rides 8 days a year is not an opinion, but something you consider to be a fact. Which is not true as I showed. You feel the need to dismiss that proof, but that doesn't change the fact that you were wrong.

.


Im pretty sure the 8 days.comment was hyperbole. Just like every.time you say that all cancellara ever won was the 2008 tds.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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Location: London.

11 Dec 2012 10:01

The Hitch wrote:Im pretty sure the 8 days.comment was hyperbole. Just like every.time you say that all cancellara ever won was the 2008 tds.


Strange considering he never won that. I'm sure I never said that. ;)

Though I did praise his Tour de Suisse from 2008 yes.

I'm pretty sure him bringing up the 8 days comment multiple times he actually believes it.

Funniest part was him bringing up an interview where Boonen said the cobblestone races where the 3 most important weeks of his season as proof that Boonen only rides for 3 weeks. I guess when Contador says the Tour are the 3 most important weeks of his season that means he only lives for the Tour. But perhaps he was just your sock-puppet trying to bate me? ;) (You don't mind falsely accusing me of that sort of stuff).
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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11 Dec 2012 10:14

El Pistolero wrote:
What on earth has Cancellara competing somewhere to do with the fact that Boonen won a race on a hilly terrain against a much better cyclist than Cancellara? :confused:.


See that's your problem. You actually think cancellara is.some 2nd grade cyclist.

Oh and btw, look who is bringing Gilbert up, again.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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Location: London.

11 Dec 2012 10:24

The Hitch wrote:See that's your problem. You actually think cancellara is.some 2nd grade cyclist.

Oh and btw, look who is bringing Gilbert up, again.


I was using his logic that past results are irrelevant because that's in the past. Surely last 2 years Phil >>>>> Cancellara. :D

And I will bring him up every time someone says Boonen is just cobbles and nothing more. If Boonen beating Phil on his home terrain isn't proof that Boonen is capable of more than just cobbles then I don't know what is? Maybe you can answer this.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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11 Dec 2012 11:08

El Pistolero wrote:I was using his logic that past results are irrelevant because that's in the past. Surely last 2 years Phil >>>>> Cancellara. :D

And I will bring him up every time someone says Boonen is just cobbles and nothing more. If Boonen beating Phil on his home terrain isn't proof that Boonen is capable of more than just cobbles then I don't know what is? Maybe you can answer this.


:confused: boonen won that race over 3 years ago. So why are you emphasizing this Gilbert < canc last 2 years thing to validate a victory from 3 years ago?
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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Posts: 26,443
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 10:58
Location: London.

11 Dec 2012 11:09

The Hitch wrote::confused: boonen won that race over 3 years ago. So why are you emphasizing this Gilbert < canc last 2 years thing to validate a victory from 3 years ago?


What makes you think I agree with that kind of logic? I'm just using it to point out how absurd it sounds. Obviously my post sounds absurd, it was intended to be that way.

He shrugged off Boonen's achievements outside of April as if they were irrelevant and a thing of the past, ignoring his many injuries. Using his logic, I can turn Cancellara into an irrelevant rider because he failed to perform in the first part of 2009 and 2011-2012. ;)

Boonen is obviously not past it and still capable of what he did 3 years ago. Don't you agree?

If you can beat a guy that came fourth in AGR(best on the Cauberg, but late breakaway survived), third in the Ronde, fourth in LBL and won Lombardia that year on his terrain... Yeah, not just cobbles is he?
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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11 Dec 2012 11:48

Ok, maybe it's time to call it a tie?

(in fact, current score really is 50/50)
User avatar Buffalo Soldier
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11 Dec 2012 11:53

Buffalo Soldier wrote:Ok, maybe it's time to call it a tie?

(in fact, current score really is 50/50)


Indeed, perhaps we should the coming season determine the current situation.
Two core races: RVV and P-R 2013.
Dazed and Confused
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11 Dec 2012 14:38

Okay, I admit I was wrong to:

-Say that Boonen was only relevant for 8 days of the year.

Was this comment clouded by my admitted slight dislike for Boonen? Yes.

Does this in any way change my opinion that Cancellara is better than Boonen? No.

For me it is an issue of quality over quantity. When Cancellara beat Boonen in 2010 in both the Ronde and Roubaix, he beat him rather emphatically. Crushed his will even. Those two wins were the most dominant classics wins I can recall, at least for me.

Should two races be used to measure the worth of a rider? I don't know, but to paraphrase American renaissance man and part-time Shamus Jeff 'The Dude' Lebowski, "yeah, well that's just my opinion, man".
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trompe le monde
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11 Dec 2012 14:46

trompe le monde wrote:Okay, I admit I was wrong to:

-Say that Boonen was only relevant for 8 days of the year.

Was this comment clouded by my admitted slight dislike for Boonen? Yes.

Does this in any way change my opinion that Cancellara is better than Boonen? No.

For me it is an issue of quality over quantity. When Cancellara beat Boonen in 2010 in both the Ronde and Roubaix, he beat him rather emphatically. Crushed his will even. Those two wins were the most dominant classics wins I can recall, at least for me.

Should two races be used to measure the worth of a rider? I don't know, but to paraphrase American renaissance man and part-time Shamus Jeff 'The Dude' Lebowski, "yeah, well that's just my opinion, man".


That's fine you know. We weren't arguing about who was better, but about the 8 days thing. Glad it's sorted out.

Would like to remind you that it isn't just 2 races though:

Omloop Nieuwsblad
Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne: well it has cobbles and if the weather is right it's an interesting race.
Dwars door Vlaanderen
E3 Prijs Harelbeke
Gent-Wevelgem
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Paris-Roubaix.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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11 Dec 2012 14:56

trompe le monde wrote:
Should two races be used to measure the worth of a rider? I don't know, but to paraphrase American renaissance man and part-time Shamus Jeff 'The Dude' Lebowski, "yeah, well that's just my opinion, man".


Best cobbles rider?
What race would you like to add? LBL, MSR or some of the preparation stuff?
Dazed and Confused
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11 Dec 2012 14:59

El Pistolero wrote:That's fine you know. We weren't arguing about who was better, but about the 8 days thing. Glad it's sorted out.

Would like to remind you that it isn't just 2 races though:

Omloop Nieuwsblad
Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne: well it has cobbles and if the weather is right it's an interesting race.
Dwars door Vlaanderen
E3 Prijs Harelbeke
Gent-Wevelgem
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Paris-Roubaix.


Cancellara's team never rides those first 3 races if I recall correctly though.
"It is going to be very scary." - Tom Boonen*
User avatar Panda Claws
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11 Dec 2012 15:05

El Pistolero wrote:Would like to remind you that it isn't just 2 races though:

Omloop Nieuwsblad
Kuurne-Brussel-Kuurne: well it has cobbles and if the weather is right it's an interesting race.
Dwars door Vlaanderen
E3 Prijs Harelbeke
Gent-Wevelgem
Ronde van Vlaanderen
Paris-Roubaix.


Sure, but this isn't about what races are interesting etc. We are dealing with two top cobbles riders. They know what the targets are.
Dazed and Confused
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11 Dec 2012 15:11

Panda Claws wrote:Cancellara's team never rides those first 3 races if I recall correctly though.


He has ridden Omloop het Volk a few times. 2008 was one of them I think. Has also ridden in Dwars door Vlaanderen, he helped Matti Breschel win in 2010.

Dazed and Confused wrote:Sure, but this isn't about what races are interesting etc. We are dealing with two top cobbles riders. They know what the targets are.


Gent-Wevelgem and E3 Prijs Harelbeke are a bit comparable for cobbles riders to what Paris-Nice or Pais Vasco is like to Contador. Tour is the main goal, but it's nice to win a stage race like that.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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11 Dec 2012 15:23

Dazed and Confused wrote:Best cobbles rider?
What race would you like to add? LBL, MSR or some of the preparation stuff?



I'm just judging them on what they, and what the cycling world, would value most out of the cobbled races, Flanders and Roubaix. I'm not discrediting races like Omloop or Gent Wevelgem, just think they should be judged according to the highest level of competition, of which most serious cobbled classics racers would latch their dreams onto winning one of Roubaix or Flanders.

Let's take European football for an example. Would you say that winning the Europa Cup is just as prestigious as winning the Champions League? They're both nice achievements, but the Champions League is certainly more prestigious and much harder to win. For me, Roubaix and Flanders are like the Champions League and the other cobbled races are like the Europa League. It's not that big a stretch to make such an anology.

Am I wrong to think to this? No, at least I hope not.
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trompe le monde
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