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2013 Santos Tour Down Under: 20th Jan - 27th Jan

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

14 Jan 2013 09:15

seaby71 wrote:I have watched goss closely for a few years now. It is clear to me that he isn't the best in trusting his team when they are leading him out. He keeps pulling out of the slip stream to look ahead and then pulls back in, thus waisting energy and not showing any confidence in his lead out. At times he leaves his lead out to follow no one just so he can have a clear run, often to far out and then fades Before the line and thus overtaken. That's where cav is so good , he locks in and fires when his lead out man gives him the signal. Greipel is also good at this. Goss should concentrate on the classics where a lead out train isn't possible for many team most of the time , and he can use his pure speed man on man where he would be much more successful.


Goss has really only had one year (in a brand new team) as the dedicated sprinter, so there is plenty of leeway for him to get that working much better. Why is it with sprinters if you aren't number 1 you should give it away and reestablish yourself as a different type of rider? If we looked at the top 6 GC riders, mountain climbers or one day riders we aren't calling for them to try riding a different way or genre, so why do some call this for sprinters. Wouldn't it be a bit boring if we just left the big sprints to Cav and Greipel? I love watching the big gun sprinters go at it, Goss, Kittel, Sagan (if he keeps sprinting), Bos, Renshaw et al are needed to make the sprints interesting IMO.

I also think that this Goss pre-season is a lot more like his pre OGE preparation and we might see a quicker and hungrier version this year. Watch out for Impey, he was super impressive last year and hopefully he comes back strong from his crash last year.
Wilba60
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14 Jan 2013 09:31

UniSA-Australia

181. HOWSON Damien
182. DEMPSTER Zakkari
183. GIACOPPO Anthony
184. PHELAN Adam
185. SULZBERGER Bernard
186. KERBY Jordan
187. WATSON Calvin
Dundee
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14 Jan 2013 10:07

Cannondale's line up is disappointing

Agostini
Salerno
Wurf
Canuti
Marangoni
Sagan (Juraj)
Vandborg
User avatar Ruudz0r
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14 Jan 2013 10:36

Wilba60 wrote:Goss has really only had one year (in a brand new team) as the dedicated sprinter, so there is plenty of leeway for him to get that working much better. Why is it with sprinters if you aren't number 1 you should give it away and reestablish yourself as a different type of rider? If we looked at the top 6 GC riders, mountain climbers or one day riders we aren't calling for them to try riding a different way or genre, so why do some call this for sprinters. Wouldn't it be a bit boring if we just left the big sprints to Cav and Greipel? I love watching the big gun sprinters go at it, Goss, Kittel, Sagan (if he keeps sprinting), Bos, Renshaw et al are needed to make the sprints interesting IMO.

I also think that this Goss pre-season is a lot more like his pre OGE preparation and we might see a quicker and hungrier version this year. Watch out for Impey, he was super impressive last year and hopefully he comes back strong from his crash last year.


I think the point is that Goss just doesn't have the smarts to win the sprints against teams with lead outs. Having watched him for a few years now I tend to agree. His positioning and/or timing is often terrible.
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14 Jan 2013 10:37

theyoungest wrote:What constitutes a World Tour stage race rider? Does Lars Boom conform to the characteristics? Does Michael Albasini?

Gerrans narrowly beat Valverde... if he had won, would this have been a legitimate WT stage race?


Comparing Goss and Renshaw is a bit flattering for the latter. Goss has had a lacklustre year, and given his form building the TDF team around him wasn't the best of ideas, but he's still one of the most talented sprinters around.


I will conceed that one. Renshaw was always more impressive as a lead out man and he will rarely beat one of the elite sprinters while Goss, may, from time to time but not on 2012 form.
movingtarget
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14 Jan 2013 11:04

Ruudz0r wrote:Cannondale's line up is disappointing

Agostini
Salerno
Wurf
Canuti
Marangoni
Sagan (Juraj)
Vandborg


looks lightweight with P Sagan, Moser and Viviani opting to take on other races.
Dazed and Confused
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14 Jan 2013 11:11

So last year Goss wasn't in the form he had in 2011, yet still wins a stage in the Giro and turns in his best Tour performance with loads of top 3s. Yet some are saying he "can't compete?". Interesting.
...[Walsh] thinks we're ahead of the curve. But think about it for a sec. We're building long-lasting, trusting relationships with people who are spending a lot of money - Coke, Nike, Subaru. If we're f***ing lying, we can kiss it all goodbye. And if we were lying we'd do some stupid stuff to try to cover it up, wouldn't we? Does anybody think for a second that a secret that big wouldn't come out? Bill Stapleton
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14 Jan 2013 12:13

I am not saying goss can't compete, however to win on a semi regular basis you need ability (which he has) , trust in your lead out (which he clearly doesn't) and race smarts (which he lacks more often than not)
I think any quality sprinter would regard 2nd and 3rds in grand tours as still a loss. When their careers are over they will talk about their successes not that i placed in many stages on a grand tour. It is about victory for these guys as it should be. If they talk about their placings then they probably never believe they can truly win anyway.
seaby71
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14 Jan 2013 12:35

People throw stupid words around like world class and elite all the time. Cavendish is a freak, a 'HC' sprinter. In a fair sprint with every top rider getting a chance, no one can get near him even if you are Cipo with a Zabel-Petacchi lead out train. The only other sprinter you can realistically call 'elite' at the moment is Greipel. There's a long and subjective gap back to whoever is third.

Sagan is a freak but he's only had one season of top line sprinting and may move away from that anyway.
Degenkolb needs an incline or hill and has faced the Quality of Opposition like he would in a Tour.
Kittel needs to stop being injured but he's on the upward, not there yet.
Pettachi is ready to get his Seniors card
Farrar has gone awol these last two seasons (for whatever reason).
The rest are either up coming talents or a bunch of B-grade sprinters

So Goss. Quite easily thrown in with those name and has shown and proven he can place highly and win a GT sprint. Being able to compete for the win is contesting, so movingtarget's original claim is just ignorance.

Sprinting is chaotic and a million things can go wrong. That's why even a rider like Cavendish doesn't have a perfect record. Trying to use him having the perfect day as a yardstick is stupid. Other sprinters can win and placing highly and consistently is a key indicator that he is has shown he is more than capable of.

'Perfect Day' arguists need to remember that on his day, Goss is less than a wheel off Cav, which not many current sprints can claim.
" wrote:"Don't push me. F*** off."
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14 Jan 2013 12:41

seaby71 wrote:I am not saying goss can't compete, however to win on a semi regular basis you need ability (which he has) , trust in your lead out (which he clearly doesn't) and race smarts (which he lacks more often than not)
I think any quality sprinter would regard 2nd and 3rds in grand tours as still a loss. When their careers are over they will talk about their successes not that i placed in many stages on a grand tour. It is about victory for these guys as it should be. If they talk about their placings then they probably never believe they can truly win anyway.


So you're claiming Ventoso is a better sprinter than Goss?
" wrote:"Don't push me. F*** off."
User avatar Tuarts
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14 Jan 2013 12:55

Ventoso doesn't have mattys talent. I think gossy has a lot of wins in the future if he would only realise that he needs to trust his team and use a bit more of his brain when approaching the finish. Cav is a freak and is probably the only sprinter that can maintain his top line speed for such long distances. Gossy certainly can't, so he needs to use other factors that can help get him over the line first on a more consistent basis. I think he probably should of won 2 stages at the tour if he was smarter.
seaby71
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14 Jan 2013 13:12

Tuarts wrote:People throw stupid words around like world class and elite all the time. Cavendish is a freak, a 'HC' sprinter. In a fair sprint with every top rider getting a chance, no one can get near him even if you are Cipo with a Zabel-Petacchi lead out train. The only other sprinter you can realistically call 'elite' at the moment is Greipel. There's a long and subjective gap back to whoever is third.

Sagan is a freak but he's only had one season of top line sprinting and may move away from that anyway.
Degenkolb needs an incline or hill and has faced the Quality of Opposition like he would in a Tour.
Kittel needs to stop being injured but he's on the upward, not there yet.
Pettachi is ready to get his Seniors card
Farrar has gone awol these last two seasons (for whatever reason).
The rest are either up coming talents or a bunch of B-grade sprinters

So Goss. Quite easily thrown in with those name and has shown and proven he can place highly and win a GT sprint. Being able to compete for the win is contesting, so movingtarget's original claim is just ignorance.

Sprinting is chaotic and a million things can go wrong. That's why even a rider like Cavendish doesn't have a perfect record. Trying to use him having the perfect day as a yardstick is stupid. Other sprinters can win and placing highly and consistently is a key indicator that he is has shown he is more than capable of.

'Perfect Day' arguists need to remember that on his day, Goss is less than a wheel off Cav, which not many current sprints can claim.


With more than 100 flat races/stages on the calendar, I have a simple definition for anyone wanting to call themselves a top level sprinter: deliver 10+ wins/season on average.
Dazed and Confused
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14 Jan 2013 13:39

So Alex Serebryakov is a top sprinter and Goss is not?
Ferminal
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14 Jan 2013 14:03

1. Cav
2. Greipel
3. Kittel
4. Sagan
5. Boonen
6. Degenkolb

And it wouldn't surprise me if Farrar was faster than Goss as well if he got back to his 2010 form.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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14 Jan 2013 14:09

Ferminal wrote:So Alex Serebryakov is a top sprinter and Goss is not?


lol, who knows. Serebryakov could continue to clock up the wins on Euskatel using Anton and Nieve as lead out train. Otoh Goss could suddenly come back and show he can beat the other sprinters on a regular basis in 2013.

Do you have a view as to what makes a sprinter Top Level?
Dazed and Confused
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14 Jan 2013 14:23

Well it depends on how many you want to include.

You could easily argue that Cav is the only top sprinter as he consistently races against the best and beats them far more often than they beat him.

The next you would include is Greipel who wins many sprints and is consistently the closest to Cav when they race.

You could stop there, the next is probably Sagan.

After that you are comparing based on wins in substandard fields or strong performances in the best fields. But there is no way you can arbitrarily define it by a certain # of wins or a by average # of places behind Cav. You can only consider a combination of the two, as for me being "top" is not based on results but based on performance and a win in a ****ty field is no guarantee of strong performance.
Ferminal
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14 Jan 2013 14:58

Ferminal wrote:Well it depends on how many you want to include.

You could easily argue that Cav is the only top sprinter as he consistently races against the best and beats them far more often than they beat him.

The next you would include is Greipel who wins many sprints and is consistently the closest to Cav when they race.

You could stop there, the next is probably Sagan.

After that you are comparing based on wins in substandard fields or strong performances in the best fields. But there is no way you can arbitrarily define it by a certain # of wins or a by average # of places behind Cav. You can only consider a combination of the two, as for me being "top" is not based on results but based on performance and a win in a ****ty field is no guarantee of strong performance.


Yes, model is not without issues.
Dazed and Confused
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14 Jan 2013 15:04

El Pistolero wrote:1. Cav
2. Greipel
3. Kittel
4. Sagan
5. Boonen
6. Degenkolb

And it wouldn't surprise me if Farrar was faster than Goss as well if he got back to his 2010 form.


I agree with the top 3. Gets a bit more muddy below those. In any case the sprint field seems quite deep and competitive these days.
Dazed and Confused
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14 Jan 2013 15:30

Dazed and Confused wrote:I agree with the top 3. Gets a bit more muddy below those. In any case the sprint field seems quite deep and competitive these days.


Yep. I can see EBH, Bos, Demare or Kristoff ( etc. ) beat Boonen easily. I'd say Degenkolb is faster than Boonen too.

The 4 are undisputed for me. And then there's rest who can sometime beat the guys in top 3 / 4 but also are on very similar level and on good day they can win. Many examples of that, first one that came to mind ( no idea why ) was EBH beating Greipel, Sagan and likes in Tirreno last year.
Gloin22
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14 Jan 2013 15:50

Gloin22 wrote:Yep. I can see EBH, Bos, Demare or Kristoff ( etc. ) beat Boonen easily. I'd say Degenkolb is faster than Boonen too.

The 4 are undisputed for me. And then there's rest who can sometime beat the guys in top 3 / 4 but also are on very similar level and on good day they can win. Many examples of that, first one that came to mind ( no idea why ) was EBH beating Greipel, Sagan and likes in Tirreno last year.


Too bad he got beaten in Paris-Nice and the E3 Harelbeke. Shouldn't he have won if he was faster? ;)

If Kristoff can easily beat Boonen in a sprint then why does he barely win any race? Why didn't he win the World Ports Classics if he's so much better? Or Paris-Brussels for that matter.

Bos his problem isn't speed, but getting at the finish fresh enough. That has always been a major problem for him.

Demare? The guy's a neo pro and still too young.

EBH? Lol, because he rides for Sky am I right?
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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