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2013 Santos Tour Down Under: 20th Jan - 27th Jan

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

14 Jan 2013 15:59

El Pistolero wrote:Too bad he got beaten in Paris-Nice and the E3 Harelbeke. Shouldn't he have won if he was faster? ;)

If Kristoff can easily beat Boonen in a sprint then why does he barely win any race? Why didn't he win the World Ports Classics if he's so much better? Or Paris-Brussels for that matter.

Bos his problem isn't speed, but getting at the finish fresh enough. That has always been a major problem for him.

Demare? The guy's a neo pro and still too young.

EBH? Lol, because he rides for Sky am I right?



Cobbled classics are different to normal sprints in stage races... same way as I didn't point out Worlds.. where Degenkolb beat Bonnen in sprint...

He got beat on one stage in Paris Nice. My god, what a disatser. Still had many stage wins this year.

Didn't you read what I said as well ?

And then there's rest who can sometime beat the guys in top 3 / 4 but also are on very similar level


Ie. Kristoff can beat Boonen sometimes, Boonen can beat Kristoff. The level field is pretty level..... Same as Bos ( agree on that part you said ) Demare or others...

So are you saiyng Demare is young and can't beat Boonen ? Lol. He already won a long-ish classic against Greipel and likes ..
Gloin22
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14 Jan 2013 16:01

Gloin22 wrote:Cobbled classics are different to normal sprints in stage races...

He got beat on one stage in Paris Nice. My god, what a disatser. Still had many stage wins this...

Didn't you read what I said ?



Ie. Kristoff can beat Boonen sometimes, Boonen can beat Kristoff. The level field is pretty level.....


Do you have any examples of Kristoff winning a sprint and beating Boonen? ;) Because I have many examples of Boonen beating Kristoff in a sprint.

E3 Harelbeke was a bunch sprint. Degenkolb wasted less energy during the race than Boonen and still lost.

Degenkolb had many stage wins? Sure, and did any of those races include anyone from my top 5 sprinter list? ;) I think not. Degenkolb actually got beaten in every race that had a good sprinting field this year. Check CQranking if you don't believe me.

As for Demare, he's too young for me to pass any judgement on already. Haven't seen enough of him yet. He didn't do well in his first GT for example.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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14 Jan 2013 16:08

El Pistolero wrote:Do you have any examples of Kristoff winning a sprint and beating Boonen? ;) Because I have many examples of Boonen beating Kristoff in a sprint.

E3 Harelbeke was a bunch sprint. Degenkolb wasted less energy during the race than Boonen and still lost.

Degenkolb had many stage wins? Sure, and did any of those races include anyone from my top 5 sprinter list? ;) I think not.


Post Danmark Rundt
Few other sprinters stage

Plus on very similar level in Eneco Tour, World Ports Classic.

Not saying Kristoff is better sprinter. But on good day he can beat Boonen and the level of field after 4th rider in your list is very deep. Boonen can ceratinly loose in sprint to rider like Kristoff, EBH, or Degenkolb...

How do you know how much energy Degenkolb wasted ? Boonen is better cobble rider and can preserve more energy on cobbles anyway etc.

Still I think his speed is higher than Boonen. And he's faster. Pure and simple. We'll see this year.
Gloin22
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14 Jan 2013 16:12

Gloin22 wrote:Post Danmark Rundt
Few other sprinters stage

Plus on very similar level in Eneco Tour, World Ports Classic.

Not saying Kristoff is better sprinter. But on good day he can beat Boonen and the level of field after 4th rider in your list is very deep. Boonen can ceratinly loose in sprint to rider like Kristoff, EBH, or Degenkolb...

How do you know how much energy Degenkolb wasted ? Boonen is better cobble rider and can preserve more energy on cobbles anyway etc.

Still I think his speed is higher than Boonen. And he's faster. Pure and simple. We'll see this year.


Lol, so you base this on one stage race where Boonen was trying to lead-out his teammate? :rolleyes:

Obviously some lower ranked riders on my list can beat him sometimes, but does that mean Cav shouldn't be number one because he gets beaten sometimes? Strange logic you got there. I'm not sure you know how these lists work. Just because you're ranked higher doesn't mean you'll never be beaten by someone ranked lower. :rolleyes:

Greipel has lost sprints againt Theo Bos and Demare(World Ports Classics and Vattenval Cyclassics respectively), but that doesn't mean I'll rank him lower than them. Consistency is key here.

Did you watch E3 Harelbeke? Boonen was active for most of the race, Degenkolb wasn't.

And exactly how were Boonen and Kristoff on a similar level during the World Ports Classic? He beat him twice. Even after doing a short solo on the (easy) cobbles during the first stage. :o

Anyway, my list is obviously based on this year alone. Next year things might be different again.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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14 Jan 2013 17:56

Guardini > all :cool:

on seriously note tho, guardini's top end speed is scary. . . i hope he improves his endurance and recovery so he can reach the finishing lines fresh and doesn't become another theo boss :o
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14 Jan 2013 18:08

maltiv wrote:... Stage 2 could potentially be a great stage. With that sharp uphill climb followed by a descent all the way to the finish, an attack will almost certainly stay away imo.


I haven't got quite through all the replies. Do people think only Stage 2 and Stage 5 are the only ones that might not end in a mass sprint? Are any of the stages, like the Old Willung one, exactly like last years'?
manolo
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14 Jan 2013 18:11

Parrulo wrote:Guardini > all :cool:

on seriously note tho, guardini's top end speed is scary. . . i hope he improves his endurance and recovery so he can reach the finishing lines fresh and doesn't become another theo boss :o


Or Marcel Kittel for that matter, climbs like a junior.
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14 Jan 2013 18:16

El Pistolero wrote:Lol, so you base this on one stage race where Boonen was trying to lead-out his teammate? :rolleyes:

Obviously some lower ranked riders on my list can beat him sometimes, but does that mean Cav shouldn't be number one because he gets beaten sometimes? Strange logic you got there. I'm not sure you know how these lists work. Just because you're ranked higher doesn't mean you'll never be beaten by someone ranked lower. :rolleyes:

Greipel has lost sprints againt Theo Bos and Demare(World Ports Classics and Vattenval Cyclassics respectively), but that doesn't mean I'll rank him lower than them. Consistency is key here.

Did you watch E3 Harelbeke? Boonen was active for most of the race, Degenkolb wasn't.

And exactly how were Boonen and Kristoff on a similar level during the World Ports Classic? He beat him twice. Even after doing a short solo on the (easy) cobbles during the first stage. :o

Anyway, my list is obviously based on this year alone. Next year things might be different again.


The thing about all these cobbled classics that you desperately hang onto for proof that boonen is the best sprinter in the world, is that those cobbled classics are tomekes raison detre. He spends half the year preparing for them and the other half resting for them.

So he arrives at 95-100%

None of the other sprinters spend months preparing a peak for the classics. They are.more 70-80%.

So all you are proving is that boonen can beat these guys when he is on red hot form and they are not. Which is still impressive but doesn't prove he's a better sprinter than them.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
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14 Jan 2013 18:28

El Pistolero wrote:Did you watch E3 Harelbeke? Boonen was active for most of the race, Degenkolb wasn't.


Boonen's (at this point) is a better cobble rider than Degenkolb (who is still young and learning the cobbles), just because he can beat him in a sprint at the end of a cobble race doesn't necessarily make him a overall better sprinter. I'm willing to bet if they went head to head in a sprint stage Degenkolb would be able to beat him.

Parrulo wrote:Guardini > all :cool:

on seriously note tho, guardini's top end speed is scary. . . i hope he improves his endurance and recovery so he can reach the finishing lines fresh and doesn't become another theo boss :o


+1, I'm hoping Guardini can get me some CQ points. :D
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14 Jan 2013 18:41

Pentacycle wrote:Or Marcel Kittel for that matter, climbs like a junior.


there are so many of these flat races/stages that a guy like Bos can take 5-10 wins/year. Same with Kittel and Guardini. Just have to avoid parcours involving speed bumps etc.
Dazed and Confused
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14 Jan 2013 19:04

Parrulo wrote:Guardini > all :cool:

on seriously note tho, guardini's top end speed is scary. . . i hope he improves his endurance and recovery so he can reach the finishing lines fresh and doesn't become another theo boss :o

He's had more years on the road than Theo Bos.
theyoungest
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14 Jan 2013 19:20

Parrulo wrote:Guardini > all :cool:

on seriously note tho, guardini's top end speed is scary. . . i hope he improves his endurance and recovery so he can reach the finishing lines fresh and doesn't become another theo boss :o


Theo Bos has won harder (more hills) and longer (more kms) races than Guardini. Hell Bos even rode 3/4tyh of a giro with a broken vertebrae...
so what the **** are you even talking about? he's twice as tough as Guardini
BYOP88 wrote:Great to see that Porte has rediscovered his 2010/11 climbing form. Hope he can keep it for the rest of the Tour and year.
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14 Jan 2013 19:28

He's won more mid-sprint fights than Guardini has too.
Waterloo Sunrise
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14 Jan 2013 19:42

Bos has also been around longer than Guardini.
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User avatar Afrank
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14 Jan 2013 19:42

Dekker_Tifosi wrote:Theo Bos has won harder (more hills) and longer (more kms) races than Guardini. Hell Bos even rode 3/4tyh of a giro with a broken vertebrae...
so what the **** are you even talking about? he's twice as tough as Guardini


Guardini is pretty close to the worst climber there is :/ I wanna see him in a fair sprint against Cavendish to see how he compares... Giro was close to that.
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14 Jan 2013 19:42

Guardini = Quaranta mk. II
...[Walsh] thinks we're ahead of the curve. But think about it for a sec. We're building long-lasting, trusting relationships with people who are spending a lot of money - Coke, Nike, Subaru. If we're f***ing lying, we can kiss it all goodbye. And if we were lying we'd do some stupid stuff to try to cover it up, wouldn't we? Does anybody think for a second that a secret that big wouldn't come out? Bill Stapleton
User avatar will10
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14 Jan 2013 19:53

will10 wrote:Guardini = Quaranta mk. II


Could be. Quaranta's win rate:

1996: 0 victories
1997: 1 victory
1998: 4 victories
1999: 7 victories
2000: 6 victories
2001: 7 victories
2002: 5 victories
2003: 4 victories
2004: 3 victories
2005: 0 victories
2006: 0 victories
2007: 2 victories
2008: 0 victories
Dazed and Confused
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14 Jan 2013 20:27

The Hitch wrote:The thing about all these cobbled classics that you desperately hang onto for proof that boonen is the best sprinter in the world, is that those cobbled classics are tomekes raison detre. He spends half the year preparing for them and the other half resting for them.

So he arrives at 95-100%

None of the other sprinters spend months preparing a peak for the classics. They are.more 70-80%.

So all you are proving is that boonen can beat these guys when he is on red hot form and they are not. Which is still impressive but doesn't prove he's a better sprinter than them.


E3 Harelbeke has really a very limited effect of cobbles, just the cobbled hills. And Degenkolb is a sprinter that can climb those hills as we've seen already, so that's not a good excuse.

Degenkolb is the only one winning races with ****ty fields, not Boonen. So I don't understand your logic there. ;)

Sprinting speed isn't even affected all that much by form. Your freshness at the finish of a rather hilly race is however affected by form. All the top sprinters win races in March and April.

Do you really think Degenkolb doesn't want to be good for the classics? I'm sure he rather peaks for the Tour de Picardie according to you, but that's another matter. :rolleyes:

Even the Tour of Denmark had a better sprinting field than the Vuelta a Espana. Degenkolb's season might look super impressive, but when you look at who he faced in those races it's all much less impressive. His fourth place at the WC is much more impressive than any of his 5 Vuelta stages. Degenkolb is actually one of the riders that resembles Boonen the most probably. And as time goes on he'll become better than him, but that's because of the age difference of course. ;)
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
User avatar El Pistolero
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14 Jan 2013 20:31

El Pistolero wrote:E3 Harelbeke has really a very limited effect of cobbles, just the cobbled hills. And Degenkolb is a sprinter that can climb those hills as we've seen already, so that's not a good excuse.

Degenkolb is the only one winning races with ****ty fields, not Boonen. So I don't understand your logic there. ;)

Sprinting speed isn't even affected all that much by form. Your freshness at the finish of a rather hilly race is however affected by form. All the top sprinters win races in March and April.

Do you really think Degenkolb doesn't want to be good for the classics? I'm sure he rather peaks for the Tour de Picardie according to you, but that's another matter. :rolleyes:


Since when has the classics been degenkolbs main goal? Yeah, he was good this year, but he didn't peak for them, unlike Boonen.
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14 Jan 2013 20:38

Bushman wrote:Since when has the classics been degenkolbs main goal? Yeah, he was good this year, but he didn't peak for them, unlike Boonen.


He was good this year? He was actually very bad this year.

In interviews he said he wants to do well in the cobbled classics and M-SR.

Did you see him as a neo pro in the Omloop het Nieuwsblad in 2011? Quite a lot of potential there.
Ryo Hazuki wrote:horrible. boonen just the same guy as years before and this course is too hard for him. that's why he rode like a coward there were at least 3 guys stronger than boonen today and none of them won: sagan, ballan, pozzato


The Hitch wrote:Goss will woop boonens candy a[color="Black"]ss[/color] in a sprint he cares about, any day of the week
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