Log in:  

Register

Analysis on the 2013 GTs mountains by PRC

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

30 Jan 2013 22:34

Doing the crostis and the zoncolan on one day, now that would be something else ;)

If Zomegnan still was here he might have made a ITT of that, would be awesome :cool:

Obviously day after we should get a Mountain stage of 250 km, it was only a ITT after all :D
User avatar Miburo
Senior Member
 
Posts: 6,974
Joined: 29 Jul 2012 19:33

31 Jan 2013 00:25

The Hitch wrote:meh. More meaningless Giro propaganda. Tour has 2 x alpe d huez. 2 times up alpe. Don't you get it? Thats like doing Liege and PR on the same day.


At the same time though, in order to make sure the riders aren't killed by the savagery of 2 times up Alpe, they've had to remove the Tourmalet from the route. Oh for a day with Tourmalet AND double Alpe on the route.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,446
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 11:54
Location: Land of Saíz

31 Jan 2013 01:12

Libertine Seguros wrote:. Oh for a day with Tourmalet AND double Alpe on the route.


Agreed but that panzie David.millar and those pussies the schlecks would probably complain its too long. Wah we don't want mountain stage over 500k, as if this was a track sprint.
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
Senior Member
 
Posts: 27,073
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 10:58
Location: London.

31 Jan 2013 01:36

The Hitch wrote:Agreed but that panzie David.millar and those pussies the schlecks would probably complain its too long. Wah we don't want mountain stage over 500k, as if this was a track sprint.


Blame Octave Lapize. If it weren't for him and his "assassins" schtick we might get these proper epic mountain stages, instead they've been getting shorter and shorter since 1910 to the point where we seldom see anything over 200km, let alone 4-500km like we ought to.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,446
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 11:54
Location: Land of Saíz

31 Jan 2013 03:15

Libertine Seguros wrote:Blame Octave Lapize. If it weren't for him and his "assassins" schtick we might get these proper epic mountain stages, instead they've been getting shorter and shorter since 1910 to the point where we seldom see anything over 200km, let alone 4-500km like we ought to.


If Desgrange was still alive, he'd make the stage from the Alpe D'Huez to the Tourmalet, then transfer back to the Alpe for a mountain ITT for the b stage of the day. Like to see that ***** Prudhomme do that.
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,124
Joined: 13 Mar 2009 23:16

31 Jan 2013 06:56

The Hitch wrote:nope, he was being sarcastic;)


I know, but I just wanted to show a prime example of the toughness
Red Rick
Senior Member
 
Posts: 4,189
Joined: 20 Feb 2012 18:15
Location: The Netherlands

31 Jan 2013 07:16

Netserk wrote:Off-topic, but just viewed the stages of the Giro one more time..
Stages I dislike in the Giro:
Stage 2
Stage 10
Stage 14
Stage 15
Stage 19
Stage 21


So you like a total of two GT mountain stages this year? :o
Ferminal
Senior Member
 
Posts: 16,776
Joined: 03 Jul 2009 09:42

31 Jan 2013 08:05

Eshnar wrote:can we agree on "very good" then? :D


Hmmm ok. :cool:
User avatar Descender
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,905
Joined: 29 Aug 2010 11:16

31 Jan 2013 09:37

Ferminal wrote:So you like a total of two GT mountain stages this year? :o

I dislike mountain stages where only the last 5k matters. Especially if they are ~150km long.

EDIT: I do like more than just 2 (GdI 20, TdF 9, TdF 19) Peyragudes is fine, but because we just saw it in the Tour, and that it is in the Vuelta this year, it isn't more than just fine. I actually like the Ventoux stage a little, because it is difficult to load it with mountains before Ventoux, so instead it is 244km which is fine.

Is there any of the stages that I disliked in the Giro that you like?
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
User avatar Netserk
Senior Member
 
Posts: 16,503
Joined: 30 Apr 2011 13:10
Location: Denmark

31 Jan 2013 10:06

Netserk wrote:Is there any of the stages that I disliked in the Giro that you like?


All of them really. Well I'm just indifferent, they aren't exceptionally good or bad. I do not think there is a perfect model for what every mountain stage needs to aspire to. A variety of short/long stages, uphill/flat starts moderate/steep gradients, one-two/multiple climbs is OK provided on the whole the mountain experience of the GT is acceptable. Not one of those Giro stages I could really improve on, it's not like they've done an ASO and added useless flat or deliberately avoided a good climb. Sure they could be longer but under Acquarone that is impossible. I have bigger issues with some of the medium mountain stages like the ones to Firenze and Pescara.
Ferminal
Senior Member
 
Posts: 16,776
Joined: 03 Jul 2009 09:42

31 Jan 2013 10:39

Ferminal wrote:All of them really. Well I'm just indifferent, they aren't exceptionally good or bad. I do not think there is a perfect model for what every mountain stage needs to aspire to. A variety of short/long stages, uphill/flat starts moderate/steep gradients, one-two/multiple climbs is OK provided on the whole the mountain experience of the GT is acceptable. Not one of those Giro stages I could really improve on, it's not like they've done an ASO and added useless flat or deliberately avoided a good climb. Sure they could be longer but under Acquarone that is impossible. I have bigger issues with some of the medium mountain stages like the ones to Firenze and Pescara.

I agree that variety is very important (which is something positive about the TdF), but except the last mountain stage all the others are ~150km ending steep.
Cancellara is like The Black Album. Really good but way overrated.
User avatar Netserk
Senior Member
 
Posts: 16,503
Joined: 30 Apr 2011 13:10
Location: Denmark

31 Jan 2013 11:00

Netserk wrote:Off-topic, but just viewed the stages of the Giro one more time..

Stages I like in the Giro:
Stage 3
Stage 7
Stage 8
Stage 9
Stage 16
Stage 20

Stages I dislike in the Giro:
Stage 2
Stage 10
Stage 14
Stage 15
Stage 19
Stage 21


Stage 19 is a day before the queen stage, so it could be disappointing because of that, but I like it as is. The first half is ridiculously hard and the long descents will be "fun" to watch. The Stelvio descent in particular. Anything can happen with teams trying to send riders up the road and GC riders who will be dropped in the descents. Some may already be cooked before they hit the Martello valley

The fact that it's short and ends on a steep ramp doesn't hurt it that much, IMO. It's still miles better than the Peyragudes stage, for instance, which can be controlled much easier, despite the length.
"The likelihood of cheats succeeding in the London Olympics is somewhat remote." - David Howman, WADA Director General
18-Valve. (pithy)
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,151
Joined: 04 May 2011 12:50

31 Jan 2013 11:12

Hi guys:

I'm from PRC and I usually read the forum but scarcely post in it.

I just wanted to say that yesterday we published the analysis with an error: we forgot to put El Cordal in the list of the Vuelta. Sorry. We've got it fixed now.

This doesn't really change the big picture, but the real number of 1ª and HC mountain passes of La Vuelta is 17 (14+3), its highest ever even tough 2 or 3 of them like Monte da Groba, Ezaro or Tenebredo are in the list by the skin of its teeth.
Viskovitz
Junior Member
 
Posts: 67
Joined: 29 Aug 2010 20:57
Location: Spain

31 Jan 2013 11:52

Viskovitz wrote:Hi guys:

I'm from PRC and I usually read the forum but scarcely post in it.

I just wanted to say that yesterday we published the analysis with an error: we forgot to put El Cordal in the list of the Vuelta. Sorry. We've got it fixed now.

This doesn't really change the big picture, but the real number of 1ª and HC mountain passes of La Vuelta is 17 (14+3), its highest ever even tough 2 or 3 of them like Monte da Groba, Ezaro or Tenebredo are in the list by the skin of its teeth.

thanks for your work :)
A race that doesn't give an attacker the chance to finish it off alone is not a race anymore.


Bronze Medal at the Great Grand Tour Game 2012

WARNING: Location says Germany, but I'm Italian...
User avatar Eshnar
Senior Member
 
Posts: 7,075
Joined: 24 Mar 2011 11:25
Location: Frankfurt am Main

31 Jan 2013 12:46

18-Valve. (pithy) wrote:Stage 19 is a day before the queen stage, so it could be disappointing because of that, but I like it as is. The first half is ridiculously hard and the long descents will be "fun" to watch. The Stelvio descent in particular. Anything can happen with teams trying to send riders up the road and GC riders who will be dropped in the descents. Some may already be cooked before they hit the Martello valley

The fact that it's short and ends on a steep ramp doesn't hurt it that much, IMO. It's still miles better than the Peyragudes stage, for instance, which can be controlled much easier, despite the length.


It's also the only stage starting literally on a big climb since umm... Can only recall Luchon 2010 but try to forget it.
Ferminal
Senior Member
 
Posts: 16,776
Joined: 03 Jul 2009 09:42

31 Jan 2013 12:59

Some of my problems with the routes are not the design of the stages (as mentioned, short stages do have their uses), but the choice of climbs.

In particular, these I have a problem with:
1) Galibier. This climb is overused as all hell in the Tour, why do we need it in the Giro too? Sure, we haven't had an MTF from this side before, but what are the odds on a closure due to weather and a Télégraphe MTF instead? Pretty good? Also, the Galibier is overused as all hell in the Tour, why do we need it in the Giro too?
2) Stelvio. One of the most legendary climbs in the history of the sport, but part of its lustre is that it is the Ventoux to Mortirolo's Alpe; it doesn't feature regularly, so it's more special when it does. Featuring it two years running seems like stunt casting, especially coming off the Gavia. What's the weather-based contingency plan here? Tonale-Castrin-(Meltina)-Martell seems like the most likely and would be a real letdown after the promise of Gavia-Stelvio.
3) Peyragudes. While im Prinzip I am happy with this stage - a genuine long multi-mountain stage in the Vuelta - I feel aggrieved that we have to finish with the same finish we saw in Le Tour just last year, and that features one of the most overused passes in the sport. From Balès, would it have killed them to do Superbagnères instead? Because the Vuelta seldom leaves Spain (except to go into Andorra every couple of years), I kind of want it to use its rare treks into France to do things that I don't see every single year in the Tour.
4) Alpe d'Huez. Specifically, the selling of the climbing of this twice as something special. Climbing an overused climb twice has become par for the course in the Tour, and I suppose it was only inevitable that this would happen. The Volta a Portugal is less predictable in its stage design, for Christ's sake. The Tour and the Vuelta are locked in a duel to see who can avoid using a catalogue of great climbs the longest. The Vuelta has done a much better job of finding new climbs in recent years but still seems to lag well behind in legendary climbs.
5) Angliru. Perhaps this is why they keep coming back to the few they have created. After the horrific conditions in 2002 the Asturian monster was left off the agenda for five years, so that when it returned in 2008 - in an otherwise comparatively easy route - there was excitement and anticipation. They're running the risk of saturating us with it. When you find a new climb that has the potential to be legendary, I understand the need to use it a few times in short order to establish its mythos (unless you really don't need to, like with Finestre, where one race was all that was needed). But Angliru has the mythos now, and so we don't need to visit every couple of years anymore. Especially as the Vuelta is developing new climbs' mythos (Bola del Mundo, Ancares, maybe in the future they'll do the same for Cuitu Negru, Haza Llana, and I still hold out for them discovering Haza del Lino or Fumanya-Pradell or Coll de Pal (the latter of which could be linked for a brutal mountain stage) at a far greater rate than Le Tour (the turnover of new climbs for which is about as quick as Andrea Guardini can climb them), is there really a need for Angliru and Lagos de Covadonga every year?
User avatar Libertine Seguros
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,446
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 11:54
Location: Land of Saíz

31 Jan 2013 13:00

Iced Galibier would be Valloire "descent" wouldn't it?
Ferminal
Senior Member
 
Posts: 16,776
Joined: 03 Jul 2009 09:42

31 Jan 2013 13:02

Ferminal wrote:It's also the only stage starting literally on a big climb since umm... Can only recall Luchon 2010 but try to forget it.


Image
User avatar Libertine Seguros
Senior Member
 
Posts: 15,446
Joined: 20 Feb 2010 11:54
Location: Land of Saíz

31 Jan 2013 13:16

Libertine Seguros wrote:Some of my problems with the routes are not the design of the stages (as mentioned, short stages do have their uses), but the choice of climbs.

In particular, these I have a problem with:
1) Galibier. This climb is overused as all hell in the Tour, why do we need it in the Giro too? Sure, we haven't had an MTF from this side before, but what are the odds on a closure due to weather and a Télégraphe MTF instead? Pretty good? Also, the Galibier is overused as all hell in the Tour, why do we need it in the Giro too?
2) Stelvio. One of the most legendary climbs in the history of the sport, but part of its lustre is that it is the Ventoux to Mortirolo's Alpe; it doesn't feature regularly, so it's more special when it does. Featuring it two years running seems like stunt casting, especially coming off the Gavia. What's the weather-based contingency plan here? Tonale-Castrin-(Meltina)-Martell seems like the most likely and would be a real letdown after the promise of Gavia-Stelvio.
3) Peyragudes. While im Prinzip I am happy with this stage - a genuine long multi-mountain stage in the Vuelta - I feel aggrieved that we have to finish with the same finish we saw in Le Tour just last year, and that features one of the most overused passes in the sport. From Balès, would it have killed them to do Superbagnères instead? Because the Vuelta seldom leaves Spain (except to go into Andorra every couple of years), I kind of want it to use its rare treks into France to do things that I don't see every single year in the Tour.
4) Alpe d'Huez. Specifically, the selling of the climbing of this twice as something special. Climbing an overused climb twice has become par for the course in the Tour, and I suppose it was only inevitable that this would happen. The Volta a Portugal is less predictable in its stage design, for Christ's sake. The Tour and the Vuelta are locked in a duel to see who can avoid using a catalogue of great climbs the longest. The Vuelta has done a much better job of finding new climbs in recent years but still seems to lag well behind in legendary climbs.
5) Angliru. Perhaps this is why they keep coming back to the few they have created. After the horrific conditions in 2002 the Asturian monster was left off the agenda for five years, so that when it returned in 2008 - in an otherwise comparatively easy route - there was excitement and anticipation. They're running the risk of saturating us with it. When you find a new climb that has the potential to be legendary, I understand the need to use it a few times in short order to establish its mythos (unless you really don't need to, like with Finestre, where one race was all that was needed). But Angliru has the mythos now, and so we don't need to visit every couple of years anymore. Especially as the Vuelta is developing new climbs' mythos (Bola del Mundo, Ancares, maybe in the future they'll do the same for Cuitu Negru, Haza Llana, and I still hold out for them discovering Haza del Lino or Fumanya-Pradell or Coll de Pal (the latter of which could be linked for a brutal mountain stage) at a far greater rate than Le Tour (the turnover of new climbs for which is about as quick as Andrea Guardini can climb them), is there really a need for Angliru and Lagos de Covadonga every year?


Since aquarone decided to have galibier he has to have the stelvio so that the cima coppi is in Italy. weird to see you compare alpe to mortirolo though
The Hitch: Winner 2013 Vuelta cq game. Winner, Velorooms prediction game 2012, 2013. 2nd all time cq rankings.
The Father of Clean Cycling, Christophe Bassons wrote:When I look at cycling today, I get the impression that history is repeating itself: riders who are supposed to be rouleurs are climbing passes at the front of the race, and those who are supposed to be climbers are riding time trials at more than 50 kilometres per hour.

The story is beginning again, just as it did 14 years ago


journalist with integrity.
User avatar The Hitch
Senior Member
 
Posts: 27,073
Joined: 14 Jun 2010 10:58
Location: London.

31 Jan 2013 13:49

The Hitch wrote:Since aquarone decided to have galibier he has to have the stelvio so that the cima coppi is in Italy.


The could have done Sommeiller (3000m) instead of Jafferau. It's right around the corner from that climb.

Except they would have to pave it first, I suppose.
"The likelihood of cheats succeeding in the London Olympics is somewhat remote." - David Howman, WADA Director General
18-Valve. (pithy)
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,151
Joined: 04 May 2011 12:50

PreviousNext

Return to Professional road racing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Axis, DNP-Old, dottigirl, Google Adsense [Bot], personal, Pricey_sky, Red Rick, Ricco', Ruudz0r, Ryo Hazuki, Squirbos_19, stefank, Stelvio and 75 guests

Back to top