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Which GT double is harder to do?

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Which double is harder to do?

Poll ended at 06 Feb 2013 06:47

Giro - Tour
72
88%
Tour - Vuelta
3
4%
equally hard
6
7%
equally impossible
1
1%
 
Total votes : 82

03 Feb 2013 11:54

cineteq wrote:The poll is proving you way wrong. Did you intend a different question? I don't get the 'too simplified'.


I don't think so otherwise I wouldn't open the thread.
User avatar airstream
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03 Feb 2013 12:04

airstream wrote:Cobo rode Angliru faster than Contador. But let's think if characterizes him badly if you like. Nonetheless, Froome rode very conservatively for Wiggins. He would have ridden much stronger for himself.


Yes, the stage Contador rode was 209,5km long and the stage Cobo rode was 142.2km. Contador had to race for more than 60km longer. Contadors race was a bit less than 2 hours longer that day. Also, the stage Contador rode had 5 categorized climbs, while Cobo's stage had only 3. Obviously Cobo did it faster, because Contador's stage was a serious mountain stage instead of that >150k crap we've been getting so much recently.

Froome would've rode conservatively if Contador was there too, so that doesn't change a thing. If these guys couldn't take more than 4min on Monfort, Contador would've probably won. Heck, Cobo took an impressive 1:35 on Sergey Lagutin on one of the toughest climbs used in GT's!
User avatar Maaaaaaaarten
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03 Feb 2013 12:22

Maaaaaaaarten wrote:Yes, the stage Contador rode was 209,5km long and the stage Cobo rode was 142.2km. Contador had to race for more than 60km longer. Contadors race was a bit less than 2 hours longer that day. Also, the stage Contador rode had 5 categorized climbs, while Cobo's stage had only 3. Obviously Cobo did it faster, because Contador's stage was a serious mountain stage instead of that >150k crap we've been getting so much recently.

It can't be an absolute justification as you are trying to present it. Cobo did almost entire climb alone whereas Contador attacked only about from 2-3 km's to go. Crap? Any thing to belittle works right? Ok.
Froome would've rode conservatively if Contador was there too, so that doesn't change a thing. If these guys couldn't take more than 4min on Monfort, Contador would've probably won. Heck, Cobo took an impressive 1:35 on Sergey Lagutin on one of the toughest climbs used in GT's!

It changes everything drastically. Froome would have attacked as he did on Pena Cabarga, surely if you don't consider attacks against Contador illegal. What does Monfort have got with that? Sky didn't need to isolate Monfort or something. Or Monfort's closeness denigrates anyone? Everything depends on existing tasks. Sky tried to freeze the situation in the mountains, because that scenario suited Wiggins perfectly.


Yes! I can imagine how Lagutin hurt all fans of domination. Lol. Poor guys. :)
User avatar airstream
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03 Feb 2013 12:34

It is the Giro Tour by a long way.
Mad Elephant Man
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03 Feb 2013 13:13

airstream wrote:Cobo rode Angliru faster than Contador. But let's think if characterizes him badly if you like. Nonetheless, Froome rode very conservatively for Wiggins. He would have ridden much stronger for himself.


he didn't. he was around 45 sec slower than alberto.

about the on-topic
i tend to believe that giro-tour is harder but nowadays with vuelta being hard ridden too ,tour-vuelta is also hard to accomplish
Vino 4ever
User avatar jens_attacks
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03 Feb 2013 13:16

airstream wrote:It can't be an absolute justification as you are trying to present it. Cobo did almost entire climb alone whereas Contador attacked only about from 2-3 km's to go. Crap? Any thing to belittle works right? Ok.


3 problems for you.

1) Contador attacked at the base, it's just that he only got rid of Rodríguez and Valverde with 2-3kms to go.

2) Contador won the climb on this stage:
Image
Cobo won it on this stage:
Image

Though we can argue about the silliness of the Vuelta's mountains categorisations, there's an uncategorised and a 2nd category climb before the time honoured Cordal-Angliru combo in 2011. In 2008 there was a 3rd category climb and two more 1st category climbs in a much longer stage.

3) Your argument is completely moot anyway as Contador's time from 2008 was 43'12 and Cobo's from 2011 was 43'44, and so unless you contend that Cobo is capable of ripping the fabric of space and time, Contador did complete the climb quicker than Cobo.
User avatar Libertine Seguros
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03 Feb 2013 13:17

jens_attacks wrote:he didn't. he was around 45 sec slower than alberto.

about the on-topic
i tend to believe that giro-tour is harder but nowadays with vuelta being hard ridden too ,tour-vuelta is also hard to accomplish


Libertine Seguros wrote:3 problems for you.
3) Your argument is completely moot anyway as Contador's time from 2008 was 43'12 and Cobo's from 2011 was 43'44, and so unless you contend that Cobo is capable of ripping the fabric of space and time, Contador did complete the climb quicker than Cobo.


haha ouch :D

Image
"The second place is not good."
The great Alberto Contador :p
User avatar LaFlorecita
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03 Feb 2013 13:24

It is not like that having teammates mean something at last 6 km, there's pretty much a time trial for everyone there


I think that comparing climbing times mean very little as there are various parameters before a climb (Toughness of the stage, toughness of the whole race etc)
burning
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03 Feb 2013 13:43

burning wrote:It is not like that having teammates mean something at last 6 km, there's pretty much a time trial for everyone there


It means a lot because Leipheimer did a lot of work for Contador. In addition Valverde or Rodriguez even tried to attack so it made the time even faster. Cobo objectively rode the climb in a tt mode.
User avatar airstream
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03 Feb 2013 14:06

airstream wrote:It means a lot because Leipheimer did a lot of work for Contador. In addition Valverde or Rodriguez even tried to attack so it made the time even faster. Cobo objectively rode the climb in a tt mode.


Valverde went one time, and did purito attack?

I don't remember that.
User avatar Miburo
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03 Feb 2013 14:22

Actually, when you have attacks this doesn't necessarily improve the time because it means people are looking at each other when the attack is reeled in, so the pace drops as they gather their forces for the next attack. Just look at Alpe d'Huez in 2008, where one of the main ways the Schleck brothers ensured Sastre got the time he needed was by attacking. Sastre was able to ride the climb at his own pace, maintain a constant tempo and not worry about anybody around him, whereas all the others had to worry about others. If Fränk Schleck attacked they needed to be strong enough to stay with him because he was the maillot jaune, if Andy Schleck attacked they needed to be strong enough to stay with him to stop him riding across to Sastre. So you've got all these people trying to ride within themselves and make somebody else do the work to ensure that when the Schlecks attacked (which they did, repeatedly), they wouldn't be caught out, while at the same time trying to get the group to go fast enough that Sastre didn't get too much of a gap. This meant that despite there being several men in the group and a few attacking (certainly Valverde had a go at one point), none of those men were giving it full gas at all times, whereas Sastre was, meaning that the guy able to ride his own tempo gained time.
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03 Feb 2013 14:37

Maaaaaaaarten wrote:Yes, the stage Contador rode was 209,5km long and the stage Cobo rode was 142.2km. Contador had to race for more than 60km longer. Contadors race was a bit less than 2 hours longer that day. Also, the stage Contador rode had 5 categorized climbs, while Cobo's stage had only 3. Obviously Cobo did it faster, because Contador's stage was a serious mountain stage instead of that >150k crap we've been getting so much recently.

Froome would've rode conservatively if Contador was there too, so that doesn't change a thing. If these guys couldn't take more than 4min on Monfort, Contador would've probably won. Heck, Cobo took an impressive 1:35 on Sergey Lagutin on one of the toughest climbs used in GT's!


I think Contador was faster on the Angliru, Cobo was only faster on the steep last 6km.
Red Rick
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03 Feb 2013 15:01

Red Rick wrote:I think Contador was faster on the Angliru, Cobo was only faster on the steep last 6km.


Yeah, I was just going with what Airstream said, but indeed, turns out Contador was even faster than Cobo.
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03 Feb 2013 18:14

To the op's question: Rodriguez said the Vuelta was the easiest grand tour, so Giro-Tour.
Be the Goat

Fabio Aru: "si muore sulla bici"
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03 Feb 2013 20:54

Libertine Seguros wrote:Average péloton speed at the Tour is higher than at the Vuelta, so it's easier to hold form between the two than from Giro to Tour (also in recent years the gap between the Tour and Vuelta has been shorter, though that also means less recovery time of course).

For reference, we can note top names attempting Giro-Tour doubles in recent years:
Menchov 2008: 5th Giro, 4th Tour
Riccò 2008: 2nd Giro, DSQ Tour
Menchov 2009: 1st Giro, 50th Tour
Sastre 2009: 3rd Giro, 17th Tour
Evans 2010: 5th Giro, 25th Tour
Vinokourov 2010: 6th Giro, 15th Tour
Basso 2010: 1st Giro, 31st Tour
(Contador 2011: 1st Giro, 5th Tour)
Basso 2012: 5th Giro, 25th Tour

And top names attempting Tour-Vuelta doubles in recent years:
Evans 2007: 2nd Tour, 4th Vuelta
Sastre 2007: 4th Tour, 2nd Vuelta
Sastre 2008: 1st Tour, 3rd Vuelta
Valverde 2008: 6th Tour, 5th Vuelta
Evans 2009: 30th Tour, 3rd Vuelta
Rodríguez 2010: 7th Tour, 4th Vuelta
Valverde 2012: 20th Tour, 2nd Vuelta
Froome 2012: 2nd Tour, 4th Vuelta

The amount of people who double up on good performances is higher for the Tour-Vuelta double.


Cold hard facts won't change Airstream's opinion.
"It's a little bit scarey when Contador attacks." Tommie Voeckler
User avatar Angliru
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03 Feb 2013 21:07

Libertine Seguros wrote:3 problems for you.

1) Contador attacked at the base, it's just that he only got rid of Rodríguez and Valverde with 2-3kms to go.

2) Contador won the climb on this stage:
Image
Cobo won it on this stage:
Image

Though we can argue about the silliness of the Vuelta's mountains categorisations, there's an uncategorised and a 2nd category climb before the time honoured Cordal-Angliru combo in 2011. In 2008 there was a 3rd category climb and two more 1st category climbs in a much longer stage.

3) Your argument is completely moot anyway as Contador's time from 2008 was 43'12 and Cobo's from 2011 was 43'44, and so unless you contend that Cobo is capable of ripping the fabric of space and time, Contador did complete the climb quicker than Cobo.


I wasn't going to post this at first and decided I would read most of the posts and then read Airstream's responses. Ultiimately this is simply another of Airstream's thinly veiled, obsession/hate fueled attempts to minimize Contador's 2011 accomplishment (Giro/Tour) and boost Froome's 2012 (Tour/Vuelta). Facts completely refuting his blinded perspective have been laid out and still he's shouting the contrary from the rooftops. Even his "facts" have been shown to be imagined by him (Cobo's vs Contador's Angliru ascents) and every way.
"It's a little bit scarey when Contador attacks." Tommie Voeckler
User avatar Angliru
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03 Feb 2013 21:14

airstream wrote:It means a lot because Leipheimer did a lot of work for Contador. In addition Valverde or Rodriguez even tried to attack so it made the time even faster. Cobo objectively rode the climb in a tt mode.


...and in what alternative universe did you get your original info that Cobo's Angliru ascent was faster than Contador's? Why can't you admit that having an extra 2 hours of racing before the final climb can have an adverse effect on performance? Are you that blinded?

If this were you on the other side of the argument you would be outraged that someone is ignoring the facts.
"It's a little bit scarey when Contador attacks." Tommie Voeckler
User avatar Angliru
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04 Feb 2013 07:19

Angliru wrote:...and in what alternative universe did you get your original info that Cobo's Angliru ascent was faster than Contador's? Why can't you admit that having an extra 2 hours of racing before the final climb can have an adverse effect on performance? Are you that blinded?

If this were you on the other side of the argument you would be outraged that someone is ignoring the facts.


On the forum. I can not admit this because it is just a factor, not a guatantee, especially knowing how riders walk 35km/h during the first hours on long Vuelta stages.

No, I wouldn't be outraged because people see the things under their angle here.

Are you OK? It has nothing to do with Contador and Froome. It is a discussion of subjective perception. This question has no uniquely correct answer because all that is impossible to measure by some absolute categories. Do you have univocal answer on this matter? Ok, but I don't.
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04 Feb 2013 17:47

Afrank wrote:To the op's question: Rodriguez said the Vuelta was the easiest grand tour, so Giro-Tour.

Yet he failed on his attempt. Was his placing worst?
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