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At what point does placing in a GT become irrelevant?

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06 Feb 2013 19:01

A stage win is better than any place except the top 3.

It's a pity with this stupid World Tour points system that riders try to defend meaningless GC positions rather than attempting a stage win.
User avatar the asian
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06 Feb 2013 19:12

the asian wrote:A stage win is better than any place except the top 3.

It's a pity with this stupid World Tour points system that riders try to defend meaningless GC positions rather than attempting a stage win.


it's always been that way. I hate it when people have no clue about history. back with worldcups and trade teams and old uci rankings you got even less points for stage wins in gt's and nobody complained :rolleyes:

you are correct though, a stage win in a gt is more important than anything but top 3
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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06 Feb 2013 19:13

Afrank wrote:Fair enough, I disagree with you however that anything other than a podium isn't worth mentioning; not every rider is capable of winning the biggest races. For some a top 10 is the best they can do. Depending on the rider I would say a top 10 result does tell you about the riders capabilities, and thus is worth mentioning.

Also I believe a rider can care about getting a top 10 in some races and still have the mentality to win other races.


if you can do a top ten in a gt then you can also win a stage. a top ten place means nothing, a stage win everything
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06 Feb 2013 19:17

Agree, a stage win means more than a top 10. I see meaning in both though.
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User avatar Afrank
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06 Feb 2013 19:27

Ryo Hazuki wrote:if you can do a top ten in a gt then you can also win a stage. a top ten place means nothing, a stage win everything


You can, yes, but will you? A rider in 8th place after a few mountain stages and a TT with, say, one or two mountains and a TT left to go has a pretty good chance of going top 10. To win a stage they are either going to have to win the TT (not realistic for most riders), break away from the favourites on the final climb (not realistic for most riders if they're going properly) or throw away their good placing and hope they can get a win from a break.

A rider sitting in 8th has a great chance to get a top-10 finish, and is very unlikely to get a stage win without throwing away their placing. If they do throw away their placing, the odds are still very much against them. To me it's all about maximising your expected results. Even if you think a stage win is twice as prestigious as a top-10, I think that if your in 8th coming into the last few stages, you're far more than twice as likely to get the top-10, so your average result is better. Playing the percentages.
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06 Feb 2013 19:30

a rider sitting in 8th should just lose time on purpose if he can't get away in any other way, like rasmussen used to do. rasmussen never rode a serious gc, but everyone remembers him, who do you remember more? soler or the 15th 10 places or so of valjavec...
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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06 Feb 2013 19:52

Only saying the top 3 is better than a stage win is extreme when you consider there are about 8-15 different stage winners each tour, yet only 3 on a podium. i.e it's much much easier to win a stage.

I would argue that riders like Robert Gesink & Jurgen Van Den Broeck who are solid contenders for top5/top10 in the TDF but without stage wins have a lot more notoriety (because of their good placings) than some TDF recent stage winners like Riblon, Ivanov, Dessel, Arvesen, Efimkin etc

Also depends on whose perspective which is more important (fan, rider, sponsor, team manager etc). I enjoy watching riders from position 3-10 GC on multiple days fighting for their place than watching a break of average/good domestiques contend for a stage victory and so usually remember them more. I also think you have to be a stronger rider to take say 4th place in the tour than win a stage.

I ofc understand that a lot of you don't care past the top 3 ...
What about top 5 ? Any takers ?
deValtos
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06 Feb 2013 19:58

I think I'll go in with the it sorta depends on the rider/situation crowd. For Contador anything out of Top-5 is 'MEH'. For a neo-pro top-20 can be cool.
And I may be biased, but I think CAS's 14th place in TdF last year was pretty cool.

Ryo Hazuki wrote:a rider sitting in 8th should just lose time on purpose if he can't get away in any other way, like rasmussen used to do. rasmussen never rode a serious gc, but everyone remembers him, who do you remember more? soler or the 15th 10 places or so of valjavec...


Well... he did attempt to podium in 2005, I think we all remember how that went... :p
It has reached my attention that some people seem to think I would make a good mod.
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06 Feb 2013 20:09

Ryo Hazuki wrote:a rider sitting in 8th should just lose time on purpose if he can't get away in any other way, like rasmussen used to do. rasmussen never rode a serious gc, but everyone remembers him, who do you remember more? soler or the 15th 10 places or so of valjavec...


Out of all people why would you pick rasmussen to support your point ? Yes the guy who held the yellow jersey in 2007 with a lead of over 3 minutes who would have gone on to win it before he was kicked out unceremoniously in a massive scandal we still get stories about today. He also got a lot of attention for his epic time trial in 05, fighting to be on the podium. And this shows that winning stages gets you remembered more than a good GC place how ?
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06 Feb 2013 20:41

After thinking a bit about this topic last night, Its irrelevant too for a GC rider to seek a top 10 spot & get unnoticed for the entire race, rather than having a rider like Voeckler winning two stages & the KOM jersey making top 30.

LuLu is another good example of that approach-he well knows he has to struggle throughout the entire race to attempt a meanless top 10 & be a ghost-not worthed at all-so he prefers to hunt for stage wins & get the reward of doing it.
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06 Feb 2013 21:02

Ryo Hazuki wrote:no I wouldn't. when have you heard me about henao's 9th place last year, only about him doing well in a first gt. but result wise anything but podium is not worth mentioning. if a rider is young or a first gt then it's great indication and only idiot riders care who lack any mentality to win races.
Again, the question isn't about what we the spectators feel is irrelevant because our particular sentiment about it is something that most definitely IS irrelevant. Pro teams do not sit around and say "oh lets not contest 4th place, because Contador fans don't care about it".

The term relevance here refers to whether it is relevant to the riders and teams, NOT the spectators.

At some point though, even young riders in their first GT stop actively contesting GC position. Where do you think that generally occurs? It sure as heck isn't around 10th. Different classes of rider obviously stop contesting at different stages. Contador continued to contest his position in 2011 even when he was in 5th and had absolutely no hope of winning, but in 2010 once Cadel dropped to about 8th or 9th he clearly eased off and ended up 34th or whatever. It actually would have more to do with the time gap however, than the actual GC placing. If only 20 sec separated the top 40, I reckon you can bet your life that the top 40 will all contest GC place.
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06 Feb 2013 21:16

Ryo Hazuki wrote:it's always been that way. I hate it when people have no clue about history. back with worldcups and trade teams and old uci rankings you got even less points for stage wins in gt's and nobody complained :rolleyes:

you are correct though, a stage win in a gt is more important than anything but top 3
How often do you see riders capable of making the top 10 but NOT the podium, whom eventually work hard and get themselves into the top 10, suddenly stop defending their position, drop back by 25mins across a stage or two, then jump into breakaways thereafter? Pretty much never.

Caruut's answer is a good one. It depends also on the stage of the race. If you get yourself into the top 10 late in the race, you sure as heck are not going to sacrifice that to see if you can grab a stage win. So in that case top 10 is more prestigious than a stage win.
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06 Feb 2013 21:18

Krebs cycle wrote:How often do you see riders capable of making the top 10 but NOT the podium, whom eventually work hard and get themselves into the top 10, suddenly stop defending their position, drop back by 15mins on a single stage, then jump into breakaways thereafter? Pretty much never.

Caruut's answer is a good one. It depends also on the stage of the race. If you get yourself into the top 10 late in the race, you sure as heck are not going to sacrifice that to see if you can grab a stage win. So in that case top 10 is more prestigious than a stage win.


yes and that's why they are idiots who nobody remembers in 10 years time. does anyone still remember someone like valjavec? voeckler will be remembered for decades
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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06 Feb 2013 21:26

Ryo Hazuki wrote: does anyone still remember someone like valjavec? voeckler will be remembered for decades


spot on






.................
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06 Feb 2013 21:49

Ryo Hazuki wrote:yes and that's why they are idiots who nobody remembers in 10 years time. does anyone still remember someone like valjavec? voeckler will be remembered for decades


I expect Voeckler will be remembered for his incredible defense of the yellow jersey in 2004 holding on to it for 10 days thanks to some courageous riding. He'll also be remembered for his even more impressive riding in 2011 matching the top climbers in the pyrenees and a substantial amount of the alpes that saw him hold yellow for another 10 days. Then there's the riding that got him the mountains jersey in 2012.

I'll remember him for those things and not because he won a stage into Perpignan or wherever they were ...

Voeckler doesn't prove your point.

And why say Valjavec when you can say Gesink, VDB2, Mancebo ?
deValtos
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06 Feb 2013 22:03

deValtos wrote:I expect Voeckler will be remembered for his incredible defense of the yellow jersey in 2004 holding on to it for 10 days thanks to some courageous riding. He'll also be remembered for his even more impressive riding in 2011 matching the top climbers in the pyrenees and a substantial amount of the alpes that saw him hold yellow for another 10 days. Then there's the riding that got him the mountains jersey in 2012.

I'll remember him for those things and not because he won a stage into Perpignan or wherever they were ...

Voeckler doesn't prove your point.

And why say Valjavec when you can say Gesink, VDB2, Mancebo ?


my whole point is that defending a stupid gc place is ridiculous when you can write history in the attack like many have done before and voeckler prooves that apart from winning stages heroic attacks or defenses(yellow jersey is of course also similar to a stage win, counts just as much) can make you a legend
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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06 Feb 2013 22:03

hfer07 wrote:After thinking a bit about this topic last night, Its irrelevant too for a GC rider to seek a top 10 spot & get unnoticed for the entire race, rather than having a rider like Voeckler winning two stages & the KOM jersey making top 30.

LuLu is another good example of that approach-he well knows he has to struggle throughout the entire race to attempt a meanless top 10 & be a ghost-not worthed at all-so he prefers to hunt for stage wins & get the reward of doing it.


At the same time, JVdB has set himself up quite well with his perennial just-off-the-podium placings and/or top 10's in grand tours without a stage win. His presence in among the elite in the mountains in the largely watched mountain stages of the grand tours and the Tour especially has made him a celebrity. If he had a stage win in each Tour as opposed to his top ten gc placings and his being seen by cycling fans climbing with the likes of Contador, Andy and Evans I don't believe he would have the same level of notoriety or prosperity.
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06 Feb 2013 22:04

Angliru wrote:At the same time, JVdB has set himself up quite well with his perenial just-off-the-podium placings and/or top 10's in grand tours without a stage win. His presence in among the elite in the mountains in the largely watched mountain stages of the grand tours and the Tour especially has made him a celebrity. If he had a stage win in each Tour as opposed to his top ten gc placings and his being seen by cycling fans climbing with the likes of Contador, Andy and Evans I don't believe he would have the same level of notoriety or prosperity.


a celebrity?? lol maybe in belgium, but you think he comes anywhere close to boonen? besides all those things you described are meaningless. nobody remembers that in 10 years time
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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06 Feb 2013 22:09

Ryo Hazuki wrote:my whole point is that defending a stupid gc place is ridiculous when you can write history in the attack like many have done before and voeckler prooves that apart from winning stages heroic attacks or defenses(yellow jersey is of course also similar to a stage win, counts just as much) can make you a legend


Riders like LLS, Voeckler and Soler are exceptions. For every one these 3 there are 15 who inspite of their stage win are still fairly anonymous.
"It's a little bit scarey when Contador attacks." Tommie Voeckler
User avatar Angliru
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06 Feb 2013 22:19

Ryo Hazuki wrote:yes and that's why they are idiots who nobody remembers in 10 years time. does anyone still remember someone like valjavec? voeckler will be remembered for decades
Again, you are taking an egocentric view of the question.... ie: what the spectator thinks. In the present moment of a race, I doubt pro riders would spare a nanosecond of thought to who remembers them after they retire. They care more about their pro contracts, prize money, doing a job for their team. If the team thinks that fighting for 10th place is worth it, then that is what any given rider will do. That doesn't make them an idiot though.


Team tactics are not decided on whether or not it will "make them a legend in 10yrs time".
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