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The pedaling technique thread

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Re:

18 May 2018 10:54

CoachFergie wrote:Wrong because you have no proof. Jacques had the right combination of VO2max, Fractionalisation of VO2max and Efficiency. The rest is all conjecture.



You keep on referring to Anquetil's superior VO2 max, what was it ? His lung capacity was 6.0 which was no better than that of an average rider, Indurain's was 7.8. Compared to natural pedalling, his increased efficiency came from the greater torque return he got from the force he applied. So without proof you do not believe having the ability to make maximal use of the most powerful muscle in the leg/hip (where all other riders' legs are idling) with about 20% more slow twitch fiber content than the glutes or quads will improve performance in a flat TT.
The advantages of this semi circular technique do not end there, the application of maximal torque at TDC results in a lower thigh effect, this gives a rider an ideal comfortable aerodynamic TT position, eliminating the need for shorter cranks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU
backdoor
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Re: Re:

20 May 2018 02:54

backdoor wrote:
CoachFergie wrote:Wrong because you have no proof. Jacques had the right combination of VO2max, Fractionalisation of VO2max and Efficiency. The rest is all conjecture.



You keep on referring to Anquetil's superior VO2 max, what was it ? His lung capacity was 6.0 which was no better than that of an average rider, Indurain's was 7.8. Compared to natural pedalling, his increased efficiency came from the greater torque return he got from the force he applied. So without proof you do not believe having the ability to make maximal use of the most powerful muscle in the leg/hip (where all other riders' legs are idling) with about 20% more slow twitch fiber content than the glutes or quads will improve performance in a flat TT.
The advantages of this semi circular technique do not end there, the application of maximal torque at TDC results in a lower thigh effect, this gives a rider an ideal comfortable aerodynamic TT position, eliminating the need for shorter cranks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hh2DcgpnkU


More conjecture. And a basic misunderstanding of exercise physiology to go with your misunderstanding of biomechanics and human anatomy.
Hamish Ferguson
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 02:21

backdoor wrote:His lung capacity was 6.0 which was no better than that of an average rider, Indurain's was 7.8.

Having bigger lungs when you are a bigger human being is hardly a surprise.

That said, lung capacity is not a determining nor a limiting factor for the sustainable power elite riders are capable of. Other factors in the O2/CO2 delivery/exchange chain are far more important.

Indeed this 1983 study found no significant difference in lung capacity between elite cyclists and sedentary individuals despite the large difference in VO2max:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6656560
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 07:56

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote:His lung capacity was 6.0 which was no better than that of an average rider, Indurain's was 7.8.

Having bigger lungs when you are a bigger human being is hardly a surprise.

That said, lung capacity is not a determining nor a limiting factor for the sustainable power elite riders are capable of. Other factors in the O2/CO2 delivery/exchange chain are far more important.

Indeed this 1983 study found no significant difference in lung capacity between elite cyclists and sedentary individuals despite the large difference in VO2max:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6656560


That's why I was asking for his VO2 MAX value. It has been said he had a larger heart than other riders. His method of training for TT's could be copied but not his pedalling technique.

What makes a great Tour rider?
By Jane Elliott
BBC News, health reporter


This weekend sees the start of the biggest annual sporting event in the world - the Tour de France - and for the very first time it will be starting in London.

But what makes these cyclists stand out from the man in the street - is it their years of dedicated training?

Or are famous riders, like Miguel Indurain, Lance Armstrong, Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault and Jacques Anquetil, born with the genes that will give them the extraordinary physique required to be a top level cyclist?

Jonathan Folland, lecturer in exercise physiology at the school of sport and exercise sciences at Loughborough University, believes cycling greats do have to thank their parents for a good set of genes - but cannot rely on nature's largesse alone.

Fantastic lung capacity

"These cyclists are phenomenal endurance athletes with remarkable physical abilities," he said.

"I believe the physiology is half-innate and half-created."


These cyclists have the ability to turn oxygen into peak energy. Miguel Indurain was phenomenal at this
Jonathan Folland
One of the major attributes needed for a successful Tour de France cyclist is a fantastic lung capacity.

Spaniard Miguel Indurain, who took five successive titles, had lungs so big they displaced his stomach, leading to his trademark paunch.

Indurain's lung capacity was eight litres, compared to an average of six litres.

Doctors also assess lung performance using a measure called Vo2 max - the highest volume of oxygen a person can consume during exercise.

In this too Indurain was exceptional - his Vo2 max levels were 88 ml/kg/min - almost double that of an untrained man or woman.

Three time winner Greg Le Mond was thought to have had a Vo2 max of 92.5 at the height of his career - one of the highest ever recorded.

And Lance Armstrong, the American who won the race seven times, had a Vo2 max of 83 ml/kg/min.

Dr Folland explained: "A Vo2 max of anything over 70 is considered elite.

"These cyclists have the ability to turn oxygen into peak energy. Miguel Indurain was phenomenal at this."

Dr Keith Prowse, chairman of the British Lung Foundation agreed that these cyclists had respiratory systems that set them apart from ordinary mortals.

"The bigger the lung capacity the better it performs, although lung capacity can vary depending on height and gender.

"Generally the taller a person is the greater their lung capacity."

Strong hearts

Dr Prowse said great cyclists usually reached their career peak between 23-35 when their body is mature enough to cope with the endurance demands a race like this placed on them.

Dr Folland said cyclists also needed strong hearts.

Lance Armstrong's heart, like that of many other athletes, is thought to be 30% larger than average.

Lance Armstrong cycling
Lance Armstrong won seven Tours
He had a resting heart rate of 32-34 beats per minute (the average for males is 70 and 75 for women) - a trained athlete's resting heart rate is lower because it pumps more blood per beat than an untrained person's does.

It is also thought that Armstrong's muscles produced lower levels of lactic acid during exercise.

This is a by-product of the body's energy production, and it is thought that the faster it can be cleared from the system, the less fatigue will kick in, and the faster the body can recover.

Muscle composition

Another useful attribute for an elite endurance cyclist is a good composition of muscles - a larger proportion of their muscles are made up of what is called 'slow twitch' muscle fibres.

These contract slowly, but keep going for a long time - 'fast twitch' muscle fibres contract quickly, but rapidly get tired.

This makes 'slow twitch' muscle fibres ideal for endurance sports where the ability to keep at it for hour after hour is vital.

"Another way they are phenomenal is the way in which their bodies can metabolise fat (to release energy)," said Dr Folland.

"They also have a very good immune system, which prevents their bodies becoming ill despite the rigours of training."

Training important

But he said that although many of their attributes are innate, that intensive training, involving endurance work as well as repetitions, helps to hone their physique.

"They will be training for anything up to four or five hours a day.

"It is easy to see what makes the top cyclists different from the man in the street, what is more difficult is to see what makes these cyclists different from those other elite cyclists. It is such a mixture of things." he said."
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 09:53

backdoor wrote: That's why I was asking for his VO2 MAX value. It has been said he had a larger heart than other riders. His method of training for TT's could be copied but not his pedalling technique.


You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson when introducing the Stig, except it's Noel introducing Anquteil.

Some say...
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 11:09

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote: That's why I was asking for his VO2 MAX value. It has been said he had a larger heart than other riders. His method of training for TT's could be copied but not his pedalling technique.


You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson when introducing the Stig, except it's Noel introducing Anquteil.

Some say...


No, the semi circular pedalling technique which can apply continuous effective chain drive force to the chainring for the smoothest possible style of pedalling.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

21 May 2018 15:44

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
backdoor wrote: That's why I was asking for his VO2 MAX value. It has been said he had a larger heart than other riders. His method of training for TT's could be copied but not his pedalling technique.


You remind me of Jeremy Clarkson when introducing the Stig, except it's Noel introducing Anquteil.

Some say...


http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/jacques-anquetil-the-man-the-mystery-the-legend-video/
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21 May 2018 20:57

But of course Merckx won more races, won more time trials and went further in the Hour Record. So using batsh*t crazy logic his way of pedalling is more powerful.
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21 May 2018 21:06

Noel, you often mention the leg position and strength of indoor tug-of-war athletes - how do the various 'joint angles' of t-o-w athletes compares to those of a cyclist in the area around TDC of pedalling (which I think is the primary focus of your pedalling technique).
E.G the smallest and largest angles of:
1) upper leg and torso,
2) upper leg and lower leg, and
3) ankle - foot and lower leg.

If those angles are significantly different for t-o-w compared to cycling, then why do you think that similar use of those muscles would be beneficial for cycling? Do t-o-w athletes employ as much range-of-motion for the those joints as cyclists?

Jay
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Re:

22 May 2018 17:54

JayKosta wrote:Noel, you often mention the leg position and strength of indoor tug-of-war athletes - how do the various 'joint angles' of t-o-w athletes compares to those of a cyclist in the area around TDC of pedalling (which I think is the primary focus of your pedalling technique).
E.G the smallest and largest angles of:
1) upper leg and torso,
2) upper leg and lower leg, and
3) ankle - foot and lower leg.

If those angles are significantly different for t-o-w compared to cycling, then why do you think that similar use of those muscles would be beneficial for cycling? Do t-o-w athletes employ as much range-of-motion for the those joints as cyclists?

Jay


The angles are very different because they are in the extreme position as they pull against an equal force taking only mini steps if any, but their power generating technique is still identical to what can be used on the bike. Their lying back in addition to adding to their force acts as a type of anchor. They are applying a force many times greater than what would be needed for maximal crank torque. When perfecting this pedalling technique by attempting to start your power stroke earlier and earlier you are concentrating on trying to generate the same maximal force as angles decrease when you move back before TDC. I discovered this technique when I succeeded in biomechanically combining hand cranking power with leg pedalling power. Without my Scott Rake type bars this would have been impossible because they removed the unwanted leverage of shoulder width bars. Without these narrow aero bars Anquetil had to use two handed resistance which is more difficult and not as effective as alternate hand resistance. Arm resistance is necessary to counter act the maximal forward force at TDC and 1 o'c. One other important requirement is a correct bike set up because your arm resistance line has to be parallel to your power application line at peak torque position. It was said that Anquetil's bars were set higher than what was customary for that period.
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Re: Re:

22 May 2018 22:25

backdoor wrote:
JayKosta wrote:Noel, you often mention the leg position and strength of indoor tug-of-war athletes - how do the various 'joint angles' of t-o-w athletes compares to those of a cyclist in the area around TDC of pedalling (which I think is the primary focus of your pedalling technique).
E.G the smallest and largest angles of:
1) upper leg and torso,
2) upper leg and lower leg, and
3) ankle - foot and lower leg.

If those angles are significantly different for t-o-w compared to cycling, then why do you think that similar use of those muscles would be beneficial for cycling? Do t-o-w athletes employ as much range-of-motion for the those joints as cyclists?

Jay


The angles are very different because they are in the extreme position as they pull against an equal force taking only mini steps if any, but their power generating technique is still identical to what can be used on the bike. Their lying back in addition to adding to their force acts as a type of anchor. They are applying a force many times greater than what would be needed for maximal crank torque. When perfecting this pedalling technique by attempting to start your power stroke earlier and earlier you are concentrating on trying to generate the same maximal force as angles decrease when you move back before TDC. I discovered this technique when I succeeded in biomechanically combining hand cranking power with leg pedalling power. Without my Scott Rake type bars this would have been impossible because they removed the unwanted leverage of shoulder width bars. Without these narrow aero bars Anquetil had to use two handed resistance which is more difficult and not as effective as alternate hand resistance. Arm resistance is necessary to counteract the maximal forward force at TDC and 1 o'c. One other important requirement is a correct bike set up because your arm resistance line has to be parallel to your power application line at peak torque position. It was said that Anquetil's bars were set higher than what was customary for that period.
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05 Jun 2018 02:43

Wow. He is still at it, trying to sell those stupid P****c***k things.
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Re:

05 Jun 2018 10:52

MarkvW wrote:Wow. He is still at it, trying to sell those stupid P****c***k things.

---------------------------
PCs have not been discussed here for quite a while.

The subject that BACKDOOR/Noel is advocating is a pedalling technique using regular cranks. My understanding is that the techique emphasizes a very strong lowerleg application of force to the pedal from before TDC and continues for approximately 180 degrees - in conjunction with strong counter-pull using the arms to maintain saddle position. The technique is said to require high mental concentration, and to be most applicable in a situation such as a flat TT where there would not be distractions from other riders, and a steady pace could be maintained.

No reliable test data is available about the effectiveness or efficiency of the technique. And any physiological muscle advantage with the technique is questionable.

Jay
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Re: Re:

06 Jun 2018 03:40

JayKosta wrote:
MarkvW wrote:Wow. He is still at it, trying to sell those stupid P****c***k things.

---------------------------
PCs have not been discussed here for quite a while.

The subject that BACKDOOR/Noel is advocating is a pedalling technique using regular cranks. My understanding is that the techique emphasizes a very strong lowerleg application of force to the pedal from before TDC and continues for approximately 180 degrees - in conjunction with strong counter-pull using the arms to maintain saddle position. The technique is said to require high mental concentration, and to be most applicable in a situation such as a flat TT where there would not be distractions from other riders, and a steady pace could be maintained.

No reliable test data is available about the effectiveness or efficiency of the technique. And any physiological muscle advantage with the technique is questionable.

Jay


Thanks! Noted.
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Re: Re:

06 Jun 2018 21:15

JayKosta wrote:
MarkvW wrote:Wow. He is still at it, trying to sell those stupid P****c***k things.

---------------------------
PCs have not been discussed here for quite a while.

My understanding is that the techique emphasizes a very strong lowerleg application of force to the pedal from before TDC and continues for approximately 180 degrees

Jay


No, it continues with maximal torque until 2 o'c where it merges with the natural downward force until 5 o'c, at which position a simultaneous switchover of max leg force application takes place. Downward force takes over from about 2.30. There is no dead spot sector between 11 and 1, that's why concentration is required.
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Re:

06 Jun 2018 21:25

CoachFergie wrote:But of course Merckx won more races, won more time trials and went further in the Hour Record. So using batsh*t crazy logic his way of pedalling is more powerful.


That would be in keeping with the objectives of each rider. As for the hour record, you only have to go far enough to beat the previous record, Anquetil did not believe in wasting energy. How many world TT's (GP de N) did Merckx win ?
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Re:

10 Jun 2018 14:30

CoachFergie wrote:More repetition of nonsense. If it was better it would be easily measureable. Jim Martin has just had a paper accepted that may shed more light on this matter.


Simulated work-loops predict maximal human cycling power
James C. Martin, Jennifer A. Nichols
Journal of Experimental Biology 2018 : jeb.180109 doi: 10.1242/jeb.180109 Published 17 May 2018
ArticleInfo & metrics PDF
Abstract
Fish, birds, and lizards sometimes perform locomotor activities with maximized muscle power. Whether humans maximize muscular power is unknown because current experimental techniques cannot be applied non-invasively. This study uses simulated muscle work loops to examine whether voluntary maximal cycling is characterized by maximized muscle power. The simulated work loops leverage experimentally measured joint angles, anatomically realistic muscle parameters (muscle-tendon lengths, velocities, and moment arms), and a published muscle model to calculate powers and forces for thirty-eight muscles. For each muscle, stimulation onset and offset were optimized to maximize muscle work and power for the complete shortening/lengthening cycle. Simulated joint powers and total leg power (i.e., summed muscle powers) were compared to previously reported experimental joint and leg powers. Experimental power values were closely approximated by simulated maximal power for the leg (intraclass correlation coefficient (ICC)=0.91), the hip (ICC=0.92), and knee (ICC=0.95), but less closely for the ankle (ICC=0.74). Thus, during maximal cycling, humans maximize muscle power at the hip and knee, but the ankle acts to transfer (instead of maximize) power. Given that only the timing of muscle stimulation onsets and offsets were altered, these results suggest that human motor control strategies may optimize muscle activations to maximize power. The simulations also provide insights into biarticular muscles by demonstrating that the powers at each joint spanned by a biarticular muscle can be substantially greater than the net power produced by the muscle. Our work loop simulation technique may be useful for examining clinical deficits in muscle power production.

Received February 28, 2018.
Accepted May 8, 2018.

This is probably the paper to which you are referring. Nothing new in this abstract, will it make you consider changing your method of applying torque to the cranks or is it to be added to the other 500+ pedalling studies.

"Thus during maximal cycling, humans maximize muscle power at the hip and knee, but the ankle acts to transfer (instead of maximize) power."
As I have already mentioned, not only the ankle but the foot and entire lower leg which contains the most powerful and most fatigue resistant muscle in the lower body act to transfer (instead of maximize) power because cyclists don't know how to use these muscles for best effect. Alex Simmons with his before and after accident pedalling power values has confirmed this. Pedalling biomechanics can never be improved by analysing existing pedalling techniques, if it could, it would have been done many years ago, it can only be done by experimenting and searching for a completely different way to apply the power.
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Re: Re:

10 Jun 2018 21:30

backdoor wrote:
Simulated work-loops predict maximal human cycling power
James C. Martin, Jennifer A. Nichols
Journal of Experimental Biology 2018 : jeb.180109 doi: 10.1242/jeb.180109 Published 17 May 2018
ArticleInfo & metrics PDF
Abstract
...
Thus, during maximal cycling, humans maximize muscle power at the hip and knee, but the ankle acts to transfer (instead of maximize) power. Given that only the timing of muscle stimulation onsets and offsets were altered, these results suggest that human motor control strategies may optimize muscle activations to maximize power.
...

-----------------------
I haven't attempted to access the entire article yet, but I'm confused by the above wording -
"these results suggest that human motor control strategies may optimize muscle activations to maximize power."

I can't determine if the word 'may' is intended to mean that CURRENT TYPICAL motor control strategies MIGHT ALREADY optimize muscle activations to maximize power.
OR that motor control strategies MIGHT BE CHANGED to optimize muscles activations to maximize power.

Regardless, the described simulation process for muscle activation seems like a possible way to analyze the power generated by the pedalling technique described by BACKDOOR / Noel. A good follow-on article would be to analyze the muscle endurance and efficiency of the simulated pedalling technique(s) that generate the highest power, compared to the current typically used pedalling technique(s).

Jay
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Re: Re:

11 Jun 2018 10:04

JayKosta wrote:
backdoor wrote:
Simulated work-loops predict maximal human cycling power
James C. Martin, Jennifer A. Nichols
Journal of Experimental Biology 2018 : jeb.180109 doi: 10.1242/jeb.180109 Published 17 May 2018
ArticleInfo & metrics PDF
Abstract
...
Thus, during maximal cycling, humans maximize muscle power at the hip and knee, but the ankle acts to transfer (instead of maximize) power. Given that only the timing of muscle stimulation onsets and offsets were altered, these results suggest that human motor control strategies may optimize muscle activations to maximize power.
...

-----------------------
I haven't attempted to access the entire article yet, but I'm confused by the above wording -
"these results suggest that human motor control strategies may optimize muscle activations to maximize power."

I can't determine if the word 'may' is intended to mean that CURRENT TYPICAL motor control strategies MIGHT ALREADY optimize muscle activations to maximize power.
OR that motor control strategies MIGHT BE CHANGED to optimize muscles activations to maximize power.

Regardless, the described simulation process for muscle activation seems like a possible way to analyze the power generated by the pedalling technique described by BACKDOOR / Noel. A good follow-on article would be to analyze the muscle endurance and efficiency of the simulated pedalling technique(s) that generate the highest power, compared to the current typically used pedalling technique(s).

Jay


The fact is, by adapting the indoor tug o'war motor control strategies of the lower leg for use in pedalling around TDC, you can activate the most powerful muscle in your lower body (that up to now has been lying idle) to maximize your power from each pedal stroke by producing the same torque at 12, 1 and 2 as at 3 o'c.
backdoor
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Re: Re:

11 Jun 2018 19:50

backdoor wrote:Nothing new in this abstract

Yeah, just add it to the list of all the other studies that have used work loop modeling to predict whole limb maximal potential. Oh wait... there aren't any others.
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