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Nairo Quintana discussion thread

A place to discuss all things related to current professional road races. Here, you can also touch on the latest news relating to professional road racing. A doping discussion free forum.

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15 Sep 2018 12:28

Movistar actually need to rethink their strategy. After the grueling TDF he was not going to be good at the Vuelta becos of tiredness. Valverde was useless at TDF but was forced to ride. A single leader at both races would have been much better and the other secondary rider would be able to help in the third week. Now all leaders have tanked in the third week and it is too late to help out. Compare that to Adam Yates being fresh and able to drive the peloton at the very end.
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Re:

15 Sep 2018 13:48

LaFlorecita wrote:I was thinking, do we have any real Quintana fans on here, not just ones that support him because of his nationality or his team? Raise your hands folks.


Hand raised. I'm a fan. I support him because I tend to like most of the "pure climbers". Yes he's going through a difficult period of his career but I'm fairly confident that he will right the ship so to speak. Also all the drama that supposedly exists in the team seems to be a figment of many a imagination, hoping for turmoil because it feeds their own ideas of what they believe should be an adversarial relationship among Movistar's three principle stars. The teams tactics and strategies are obviously flawed but I don't see any conflict that is on the level of what many here try to promote.
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15 Sep 2018 17:52

Best Quintana we've seen in the last two years was Giro 2017 when supposedly he was good for about a week compared to the Nairo we all think we know. Since then everything went worse. Maybe it's premature to write him off as a GT winner but with all these new kids in town it looks increasingly plausible that he will never win a Grand Tour again.
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Re: Re:

16 Sep 2018 02:11

Deleted because misunderstood a post.
Last edited by Escarabajo on 16 Sep 2018 02:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re:

16 Sep 2018 02:19

Iker_Baqueiro wrote:The quintana-is-better-in-the-third-week myth is destroyed now.

The quintana-worshippers are humbled now. Thankfully, we will hear less and less of them from now on.

Again your idiotic comments. The only time you show in this forum is to insult Quintana.

This is very sad.
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Re:

16 Sep 2018 02:21

LaFlorecita wrote:I was thinking, do we have any real Quintana fans on here, not just ones that support him because of his nationality or his team? Raise your hands folks.

Before he got chunky it was very nice to ride in the mountains. I liked his style on the bike. And I have always been a romantic of pure climbing. That was the way I was entertained during the 80's. :)

I agree that I follow Colombians (sorry) and others but I try to be objective when it comes to them. The thing is that from the lot of Colombians Quintana is the one I support the most. For example I don't follow Rigo too much. I don't like his style on the bike and his only strength was the TT which he screwed up. So there is not much hope there. You would think that I would be jumping up and down for him during the Tour last year but I didn't really care that much. He only followed wheels and even if there was 1 second he never was going to win.

Now I follow Bernal as well. His style on the bike is too grinding. Not the best but like Cadel. But he could be the best in the mountains and you got to support that. Wouldn't you?

Just in case you are interested when there were no Colombians in the scene or at least as GC contenders I followed Cadel and Sastre. Weird huh. But in general I have always followed cycling even without Colombians.
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16 Sep 2018 02:36

Quintana's best GT was the 2015 Tour. He hasn't hit that level since and I think it is now apparent he won't. At this point I think he would be better off on another team. Similar reason that I've thought for about 2-3 years that Tejay needed to go to a new team. Sometimes a change of scenery and a different way of doing things will help.
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Re:

16 Sep 2018 04:21

Koronin wrote:Quintana's best GT was the 2015 Tour. He hasn't hit that level since and I think it is now apparent he won't. At this point I think he would be better off on another team. Similar reason that I've thought for about 2-3 years that Tejay needed to go to a new team. Sometimes a change of scenery and a different way of doing things will help.


Yeah because Froome was at his peak then. I think Tejay is a different situation but changing teams was the best for him not that he had a choice at the time with the BMC chaos. I thought Pinot may have moved on as well but he didn't.
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Re: Re:

16 Sep 2018 04:47

movingtarget wrote:
Koronin wrote:Quintana's best GT was the 2015 Tour. He hasn't hit that level since and I think it is now apparent he won't. At this point I think he would be better off on another team. Similar reason that I've thought for about 2-3 years that Tejay needed to go to a new team. Sometimes a change of scenery and a different way of doing things will help.


Yeah because Froome was at his peak then. I think Tejay is a different situation but changing teams was the best for him not that he had a choice at the time with the BMC chaos. I thought Pinot may have moved on as well but he didn't.


It may have been Froome's peak, but he seemed at that same level in 2016 as well. Quintana didn't. I agree Tejay's situation is different as I think a lot of Tejay's problems are mental and he's not getting the right advice. I have wanted him to go to a new team for a couple of years. I think he should do better with Slipstream. Just hope they don't try to have him go after GC in Grand Tours. I don't think Tejay can handle the pressure. I think with Pinot after the Giro he and the team finally realized that he needed to change his approach to Grand Tours and he seems happier at the Vuelta. I think FDJ and he can do this they'll be ok. Quintana needs a different approach, and I'm thinking a team with more structure would do him some good. Movistar pretty much has none, so any other team in the peloton would have better structure. I'm not talking about going from one extreme in Movistar to the other extreme in Sky. Dowsett did that in the other direction and has talked about total culture shock many times.
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16 Sep 2018 18:30

Quintana, Lopez and Bardet are completely overrated thanks to the lack of TT kilometers compared to Pantani's palmares in the 90s or in case of the latter two even Rujano's 3rd spot at the 2005 Giro d'Italia! Especially Bardet and Lopez would be fully average gc contenders with 70 kilometers against the clock as long as they don't commit themselves to the KOM competition. Quintana is by far the best of them, but still miles behind Pantani!

I never thought I'd once agree with Bavarianrider in that matter, but we indeed need more tt kilometers and multiple mountain stages to force this riders to go on the attack and show their climbing skills instead of conservatively riding around and earn an undeserved palmares of podium spots.

Guys like Armstrong & Froome beat them anyway. Let Quintana and Bardet at least earn their spots like Pantani, Virenque and Rujano used to do and give back the KOM competition its legacy. Quintana won his polka dot jersey kinda "along the way" which was worse than Anthony Charteu who at least fought for it.

With strong rouleurs like Dumoulin lately being favored over skinny climbers anyway, there's no other option than to turn back the clock in terms of route design and make those stars perform on their supposed stage again.

Otherwise we're actually just talking about a boomerang effect of bad route design that was once supposed to increase climbers gc chances, but now in fact back flips since it has first taken their heroicness while increasing their results on paper and now takes away their playground completely since strong rouleurs can Motor-up weak mountain stages no matter how steep they are.
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16 Sep 2018 20:53

You can't just bring one thing back and ignore obvious other things that have changed.
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17 Sep 2018 14:00

Pure climbers usually no longer win grand tours but Quintana has shown that it is possible so it's up to Bardet, Quintana and others to address that. The TT kms are much less than they used to be. Pinot and Quintana can sometimes TT well but not lately and nothing like Froome and Dumoulin. I would not mind seeing some old fashioned mountain stages either with more kms and more climbs but the trend is the opposite so it probably won't happen and you have to admit that the short stages in the last few years mostly tend to be good stages that shake up the GC but a mix would be good. And if more TT kms are added, the fans of the climbers will be crying about how unfair it is or it's killing the racing. Mixing up the TT kms would be only fair especially for the riders that can TT well but are maybe not top tier climbers but that would be considered to be too much off a gift for the best all rounders like Dumoulin and Froome. Maybe a few more mountain TTs would also help balance it out. And when Ben King wins two mountain stages you have to wonder about the tactics of some of the teams with the best climbers. Aren't they just missed opportunities ?
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Re:

17 Sep 2018 14:06

Red Rick wrote:You can't just bring one thing back and ignore obvious other things that have changed.



You are right. There are many factors that should be taken under consideration when comparing riders from different eras.
But in cycling (like almost all other sports), the riders that have stood out from the competition have gotten all the praise and sympathy.
Pantani was a quintessential example. From 1994-1998 it was almost a given that Pantani would attack and put time into the top time-trialists. There are so few stages that rouleurs and time trialists used to distance him in the climbs.
Even in some stages that he finished with or back from guys like Indurain and Ulrich, he used to put better performances in the climbs (Carpentras 1994, Courchevel 1997 etc.)
These days the situation seems a bit reversed. There are so few cases when pure climbers like Bardet and Quintana drop the big time trialists in the climbs.
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Re: Re:

17 Sep 2018 14:15

Ataraxus wrote:There are so few cases when pure climbers like Bardet and Quintana drop the big time trialists in the climbs.

Because Froome, Roglic and Dumoulin are not 'big time trialists'. As climbers they are equal or better than the likes of Bardet. Non-dominant pure climbers like Bardet (and Quintana, by recent form) have never been able to win GTs, and they shouldn't be.
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Re: Re:

17 Sep 2018 14:35

Squire wrote:
Ataraxus wrote:There are so few cases when pure climbers like Bardet and Quintana drop the big time trialists in the climbs.

Because Froome, Roglic and Dumoulin are not 'big time trialists'. As climbers they are equal or better than the likes of Bardet. Non-dominant pure climbers like Bardet (and Quintana, by recent form) have never been able to win GTs, and they shouldn't be.

I think non non-dominant pure climbers have relatively good chances of winning the Vuelta and a bit lower chances of the Giro, but definitely not the Tour.
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17 Sep 2018 15:35

Pantani and Sastre are the last two "pure" climbers who have won the Tour - meaning climbers with a handicap in the time trials. Based on that I was hoping for Quintana this year - years ending in 8 you know... Unfortunately Quintana has been underperforming in the past two years. The first bad signs were in the Tour 2016 when he had trouble following Yates, Porte and even Mollema. He still has good days, but he has become inconsistent. On L'Alpe d'Huez he had a really bad day, but he bounced back with a great stage win - after already winning one in Switzerland.

I think he should go to another team, even if that's a smaller team, but a team where he doesn't have to fight for the leadership in the first week. He needs people around him who believe in him and support him.

He also needs to ride much more aggressively. His strong point is his climbing in the high mountains. When there's a serious MTF he should always attack and stop looking behind him, waiting and listening to people who say it's too early. When it's high and steep he should attack. It's the only way he can make a difference.
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Re: Re:

17 Sep 2018 16:05

Squire wrote:
Ataraxus wrote:There are so few cases when pure climbers like Bardet and Quintana drop the big time trialists in the climbs.

Because Froome, Roglic and Dumoulin are not 'big time trialists'. As climbers they are equal or better than the likes of Bardet. Non-dominant pure climbers like Bardet (and Quintana, by recent form) have never been able to win GTs, and they shouldn't be.


Don't you contradict yourself by saying that the pure climbers have never been able to win grand tours, and then back up by saying "Quintana, by recent form"? Aru won a grand tour. Bardet finished second in the Tour. That tells me that he could win a grand tour. To say that they shouldn't be able to is to say what is the point of them being there at all? Gilberto Simoni was a pure a climber as there was and he won multiple Giro's. Do you mean pure climbers shouldn't be able to win the Tour? Circumstances can align to make it possible. A favorable parcour maybe?
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Re: Re:

17 Sep 2018 16:47

Angliru wrote:
Squire wrote:
Ataraxus wrote:There are so few cases when pure climbers like Bardet and Quintana drop the big time trialists in the climbs.

Because Froome, Roglic and Dumoulin are not 'big time trialists'. As climbers they are equal or better than the likes of Bardet. Non-dominant pure climbers like Bardet (and Quintana, by recent form) have never been able to win GTs, and they shouldn't be.


Don't you contradict yourself by saying that the pure climbers have never been able to win grand tours, and then back up by saying "Quintana, by recent form"? Aru won a grand tour. Bardet finished second in the Tour. That tells me that he could win a grand tour. To say that they shouldn't be able to is to say what is the point of them being there at all? Gilberto Simoni was a pure a climber as there was and he won multiple Giro's. Do you mean pure climbers shouldn't be able to win the Tour? Circumstances can align to make it possible. A favorable parcour maybe?

I should've said the Tour de France instead of GTs. The Giro and the Vuelta are by nature (and historically) more climber friendly. Simoni would never have won a Tour.

But you are missing my point. I didn't say pure climbers can't win the Tour. Some pure climbers have obviously won it. But they were dominant in the mountains. As long as the 'big time trialists', as Ataraxus put it, are better than the 'climbers' on the climbs, no favourable parcours in the world can make Bardet win a Tour.
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17 Sep 2018 18:18

Thing is that the 'big guys' aren't even big now.
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Re:

18 Sep 2018 02:10

Red Rick wrote:Thing is that the 'big guys' aren't even big now.


Yes it's totally changed with diets and training and physiques. Weight of the riders seems to be almost obsessive. Looking at grand tour winners from the 70s through to the 90s generally they looked much bigger. You look at Wiggins, Froome, Schleck etc and wonder where the power comes from. Evans was shorter and more of an old style power climber and it was no surprise to see Evans sometimes struggle with the best modern climbers. His conservative style of racing and his TT were important to his success. When the best climbers are also the best TT riders or near enough the TT is much more important than it used to be for the pure climbers. Be interesting to see how it works out with the next generation as Dumoulin and Froome's TT abilities are still pretty uncommon for GT riders. Wiggins would also have to be included in that group and his climbing was a bit underrated.
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