Log in:  

Register

Study suggests Tramadol enhances TT performance by ~ 5%

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

Moderators: Eshnar, King Boonen, Red Rick, Pricey_sky

Re: Re:

30 May 2018 17:25

King Boonen wrote:
Mayomaniac wrote:You'd think that they'd ban it as soon as possible, now that it getting a rep for being used by the Islamic State, you'd think than not a single sport, or WADA in general would be willing to be associated with something like that.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/03/italian-police-intercept-tramadol-haul-isis-libya


This is getting a little political, I'll just point out that many sports in the very recent past and future either have or will be associating themselves with some very questionable places, much more than a coincidence like this.

Yes, I get what you're saying I was just thinking that getting associated with something like that could be a potential PR nightmare for a team and cause some heat from the sponsors.
User avatar Mayomaniac
Veteran
 
Posts: 5,364
Joined: 30 Jun 2014 17:11

31 May 2018 09:54

How much do motors enhance TT performance?
DanielSong39
Member
 
Posts: 1,053
Joined: 15 Jul 2016 13:03

Re:

31 May 2018 10:16

DanielSong39 wrote:How much do motors enhance TT performance?


Go ask in the relevant thread.
Vincenzo Nibali:
"I know how to ride a bike"

Reduce your carbon footprint, ride steel.
User avatar King Boonen
Administrator
 
Posts: 7,410
Joined: 25 Jul 2012 14:38

14 Jun 2018 20:25

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cycling-rife-with-tramadol-use-wada-report-shows/
Cycling is far from having cleaned up its act when it comes to drugs, a new report from the World Anti-Doping Agency shows. The agency released the data from its Monitoring Programme - where it tracks the use of substances that are not on the banned list but are being tracked for potential abuse. Tramadol, a synthetic opioid painkiller, showed up in over four per cent of all doping controls tested - a rate an order of magnitude higher than in any other endurance sport.


2017 Monitoring Program Figures report at
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-06/wada-publishes-2017-monitoring-program-figures

Cyclists taking Tramadol, who'd believe it? :surprised:
"Are you going to believe me or what you see with your own eyes?"

“It doesn’t matter what I do. People need to hear what I have to say. There’s no one else who can say what I can say. It doesn’t matter what I live.”
User avatar Robert5091
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,852
Joined: 29 Mar 2016 08:56
Location: stockholm, sweden

Re:

14 Jun 2018 21:22

Robert5091 wrote:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cycling-rife-with-tramadol-use-wada-report-shows/
Cycling is far from having cleaned up its act when it comes to drugs, a new report from the World Anti-Doping Agency shows. The agency released the data from its Monitoring Programme - where it tracks the use of substances that are not on the banned list but are being tracked for potential abuse. Tramadol, a synthetic opioid painkiller, showed up in over four per cent of all doping controls tested - a rate an order of magnitude higher than in any other endurance sport.


2017 Monitoring Program Figures report at
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-06/wada-publishes-2017-monitoring-program-figures

Cyclists taking Tramadol, who'd believe it? :surprised:


Interesting to see, but that 4% figure would still be just tip of the iceberg. I would be interested to know what "showed up in 4 % of all doping controls" means? Is there a threshold above which they say, "yes, there's tramadol", but that is set high enough that tramadol use is not showing up?
Sciatic
Junior Member
 
Posts: 271
Joined: 04 Mar 2011 06:18
Location: Seattle, Washington

Re: Re:

15 Jun 2018 05:01

Sciatic wrote:
Robert5091 wrote:http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cycling-rife-with-tramadol-use-wada-report-shows/
Cycling is far from having cleaned up its act when it comes to drugs, a new report from the World Anti-Doping Agency shows. The agency released the data from its Monitoring Programme - where it tracks the use of substances that are not on the banned list but are being tracked for potential abuse. Tramadol, a synthetic opioid painkiller, showed up in over four per cent of all doping controls tested - a rate an order of magnitude higher than in any other endurance sport.


2017 Monitoring Program Figures report at
https://www.wada-ama.org/en/media/news/2018-06/wada-publishes-2017-monitoring-program-figures

Cyclists taking Tramadol, who'd believe it? :surprised:


Interesting to see, but that 4% figure would still be just tip of the iceberg. I would be interested to know what "showed up in 4 % of all doping controls" means? Is there a threshold above which they say, "yes, there's tramadol", but that is set high enough that tramadol use is not showing up?

It means out of the doping tests performed (controls), 4% were positive for Tramadol. If you think of doping tests as a form of random sampling, then the 4% might represent the whole population. But I am not so sure you can consider doping like a random sample, as there is some selectivity to doping controls. My guess would be overall Tramadol use is greater than the 4.4% identified.
User avatar Ripper
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,628
Joined: 14 Sep 2009 03:41
Location: It's a surprise!

Re: Re:

15 Jun 2018 09:21

Sciatic wrote:Interesting to see, but that 4% figure would still be just tip of the iceberg. I would be interested to know what "showed up in 4 % of all doping controls" means? Is there a threshold above which they say, "yes, there's tramadol", but that is set high enough that tramadol use is not showing up?
The report is available to read. It shows that in 2017, out of 12,554 samples, 548 (4.37%) showed traces of Tramadol in excess of 50ng/mL. Codeine (in excess of 50ng/mL) showed up in 45 of those samples (0.36%).

Similarly, out of 3,199 IC samples 121 (3.78%) showed traces of Glucocorticoids in excess of 1ng/mL while it was 21 out 479 (4.38%) for OOC samples.

To put the samples tested figure in context, it is worth noting that in 2016 in excess of 23,000 samples were tested across all cycling disciplines. The 2017 figure is not yet available.

So, one in twenty-three samples showed the presence of Tramadol. Which is notable, yes, but is hardly widespread or unchecked.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,789
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Re:

15 Jun 2018 09:23

Ripper wrote:If you think of doping tests as a form of random sampling, then the 4% might represent the whole population. But I am not so sure you can consider doping like a random sample, as there is some selectivity to doping controls. My guess would be overall Tramadol use is greater than the 4.4% identified.
But as the selectivity is tilted toward those assumed to be most likely to be doping, you could also guess that overall Tramadol use is less than the 4.37% identified.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,789
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Study suggests Tramadol enhances TT performance by ~ 5%

15 Jun 2018 09:31

Agreed, the winning riders always give a sample, so the 4.37% is likely to be less in the winning riders as diluted by the non-winners also giving their random samples. Hard to say how much. It's top 3 finishers of the stage, overall GC leader and then random 3 from bunch over the line give urine I believe? Samples include out of competition too I think.
samhocking
Member
 
Posts: 1,867
Joined: 13 Mar 2013 22:44

Re: Re:

15 Jun 2018 11:39

fmk_RoI wrote:
Sciatic wrote:Interesting to see, but that 4% figure would still be just tip of the iceberg. I would be interested to know what "showed up in 4 % of all doping controls" means? Is there a threshold above which they say, "yes, there's tramadol", but that is set high enough that tramadol use is not showing up?
The report is available to read. It shows that in 2017, out of 12,554 samples, 548 (4.37%) showed traces of Tramadol in excess of 50ng/mL. Codeine (in excess of 50ng/mL) showed up in 45 of those samples (0.36%).

Similarly, out of 3,199 IC samples 121 (3.78%) showed traces of Glucocorticoids in excess of 1ng/mL while it was 21 out 479 (4.38%) for OOC samples.

To put the samples tested figure in context, it is worth noting that in 2016 in excess of 23,000 samples were tested across all cycling disciplines. The 2017 figure is not yet available.

So, one in twenty-three samples showed the presence of Tramadol. Which is notable, yes, but is hardly widespread or unchecked.
It's also worth noting that the numbers are not as high as they have been in previous reports. A 2015 Monitoring Program report showed 12,358 samples tested and 730 (5.91%, or one on seventeen) of them showing traces of Tramadol above 200ng/mL (compared with above 50ng/mL for the 2017 report). The 2013 report shows 832 returns (6.5%, or fifteen) from 12,797 samples, also at the >200ng/mL level. As with the 2017 figures, these relate solely to IC tests (OOC samples not checked for Tramadol).
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,789
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Re:

15 Jun 2018 22:19

fmk_RoI wrote:
Ripper wrote:If you think of doping tests as a form of random sampling, then the 4% might represent the whole population. But I am not so sure you can consider doping like a random sample, as there is some selectivity to doping controls. My guess would be overall Tramadol use is greater than the 4.4% identified.
But as the selectivity is tilted toward those assumed to be most likely to be doping, you could also guess that overall Tramadol use is less than the 4.37% identified.


you can't make any conclusions about what this means without knowing the glow time and use patterns for Tramadol. It could very well be that 100% of cyclists use it, but each is only glowing 4% of the time.
proffate
Member
 
Posts: 422
Joined: 10 Jul 2012 01:35

Re: Re:

15 Jun 2018 22:46

fmk_RoI wrote:
Ripper wrote:If you think of doping tests as a form of random sampling, then the 4% might represent the whole population. But I am not so sure you can consider doping like a random sample, as there is some selectivity to doping controls. My guess would be overall Tramadol use is greater than the 4.4% identified.
But as the selectivity is tilted toward those assumed to be most likely to be doping, you could also guess that overall Tramadol use is less than the 4.37% identified.

You could guess that. The main point being, I don't know if the number is representative of the population, so to speak. It all depends on what kind of targeting is being done, etc. Given Tramadol is not banned, it could easily be used by lots of riders who are not 'suspect', per se.

Overall, it's an interesting finding. It's not a drug I am comfortable having in the peloton, as I would not want someone crashing into me or getting overly agro. :P But the click bait of "rife" was a bit funny.
User avatar Ripper
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,628
Joined: 14 Sep 2009 03:41
Location: It's a surprise!

16 Jun 2018 05:39

Not sure if this was already pointed out, but it seems to me it is 4% of all controls, including out of competition controls.
This means either 4% of riders use tramadol so often that it shows up outside competition, or if riders do not use it outside competition, the percentage using it in competition is higher.
hmronnow
Junior Member
 
Posts: 140
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 18:45

Re: Study suggests Tramadol enhances TT performance by ~ 5%

16 Jun 2018 07:00

samhocking wrote:Agreed, the winning riders always give a sample, so the 4.37% is likely to be less in the winning riders as diluted by the non-winners also giving their random samples. Hard to say how much. It's top 3 finishers of the stage, overall GC leader and then random 3 from bunch over the line give urine I believe? Samples include out of competition too I think.

Or maybe it is higher in winning riders & diluted by non-winning riders' samples?
User avatar LaFlorecita
Veteran
 
Posts: 30,559
Joined: 15 May 2011 09:53
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

Re:

16 Jun 2018 09:04

hmronnow wrote:Not sure if this was already pointed out, but it seems to me it is 4% of all controls, including out of competition controls.
This means either 4% of riders use tramadol so often that it shows up outside competition, or if riders do not use it outside competition, the percentage using it in competition is higher.
I have already stated that the 2017, 2015, and 2013 figures all relate solely to IC testing. Tramadol is not monitored OOC.

It is interesting to see how much effort is being made to discredit a figure that is far below what many want to believe the figure is.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,789
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Re:

16 Jun 2018 13:17

fmk_RoI wrote:It is interesting to see how much effort is being made to discredit a figure that is far below what many want to believe the figure is.


That's one way of viewing it. I've actually taken it that there is simply a fair bit of curiosity of whether this figure is representative, lower, or higher than the larger peloton. Of course, most folks are not statisticians, so there's lots of unknown there. I'd love to hear what a statistician with expertise in this sort of sampling would have to say. We also don't have a clear idea of the impact of targeted testing. So I highly doubt we'd ever be fully clear on how this exactly compares with the larger pro racing community - but those with expertise in the matter may totally have different thoughts! :)
User avatar Ripper
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,628
Joined: 14 Sep 2009 03:41
Location: It's a surprise!

Re: Study suggests Tramadol enhances TT performance by ~ 5%

16 Jun 2018 15:47

LaFlorecita wrote:
samhocking wrote:Agreed, the winning riders always give a sample, so the 4.37% is likely to be less in the winning riders as diluted by the non-winners also giving their random samples. Hard to say how much. It's top 3 finishers of the stage, overall GC leader and then random 3 from bunch over the line give urine I believe? Samples include out of competition too I think.

Or maybe it is higher in winning riders & diluted by non-winning riders' samples?


Perhaps. Although the winners to losers being tested is still about 50:50 split. Every winner contributes along with every podium finisher to that 4.37% and 3 other random losers each race.
So, if every winner is on tramadol, and every loser isn't the figures would be around 50%. To get down to 4.37% is not possible if even 1 in 3 winners are on tramadol. The lowest that could be is 33.333%.
samhocking
Member
 
Posts: 1,867
Joined: 13 Mar 2013 22:44

Re: Re:

16 Jun 2018 18:32

Ripper wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:It is interesting to see how much effort is being made to discredit a figure that is far below what many want to believe the figure is.


That's one way of viewing it. I've actually taken it that there is simply a fair bit of curiosity of whether this figure is representative, lower, or higher than the larger peloton. Of course, most folks are not statisticians, so there's lots of unknown there. I'd love to hear what a statistician with expertise in this sort of sampling would have to say. We also don't have a clear idea of the impact of targeted testing. So I highly doubt we'd ever be fully clear on how this exactly compares with the larger pro racing community - but those with expertise in the matter may totally have different thoughts! :)
Curiosity is to be encouraged. Stating that the reported figure is distorted by OOC testing is not, not when the report is clear on this and it has been stated that the 4% refers to IC testing. Nor should we encourage those saying we don't know Tramadol's glow time. They may not have looked for it but it is known. And easily found.
User avatar fmk_RoI
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,789
Joined: 16 Sep 2010 07:31

Re: Study suggests Tramadol enhances TT performance by ~ 5%

16 Jun 2018 21:55

Some points about that tramadol report:

1) Cycling includes all kinds of racing, including track, e.g., where I would think that analgesics would be less common, though if someone more familiar with the sport wants to argue that's not the case, I'll certainly listen. It may also be relevant that in the "impaired" category in that same report, the proportion of positives was much lower, about 1%.

2) The 50 ng/ml threshold seems pretty high. Detection limits of 10 ng/ml are common, and I've seen one report claiming a limit as low as just 0.2 ng/ml.

3) Tramadol has a short half-life, and most studies report that it's not detectable 24-48 hours after a single typical dose, though some of its metabolites may persist longer.

Putting these points together, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the actual prevalence of tramadol in road cyclists is much higher than 4-5%. Since the drug is not banned, WADA is not going to make a major, no-expense barred, effort to detect users.
Merckx index
Senior Member
 
Posts: 3,758
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 19:19

Re: Re:

16 Jun 2018 23:30

fmk_RoI wrote:Curiosity is to be encouraged. Stating that the reported figure is distorted by OOC testing is not, not when the report is clear on this and it has been stated that the 4% refers to IC testing. Nor should we encourage those saying we don't know Tramadol's glow time. They may not have looked for it but it is known. And easily found.

I'm presuming you're stating this aloud for others, as did not state any of these things.
User avatar Ripper
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,628
Joined: 14 Sep 2009 03:41
Location: It's a surprise!

PreviousNext

Return to The Clinic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Libertine Seguros, Sestriere and 22 guests

Back to top