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Hall of Shame in Doping | Inaugural Edition

The Clinic is the only place on Cyclingnews where you can discuss doping-related issues. Ask questions, discuss positives or improvements to procedures.

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Re: Re:

17 May 2019 20:54

Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:
Amazinmets87 wrote:Climbing talent aside, what's your explanation for Pantani's incredulous ITTs in the '99 Giro?
Incredulous, how? Do you have the course profiles to hand, and the times?


Thanks, I couldn't be bothered. Pantani's rise and fall did not strike me as Lance like - or di Luca or Ricco either.

Close inspection of his results show there are explanations when placed in context. Pantani was simple guy who had a god given talent to climb mountains dope or not. When that god given talent was taken away from him at the 99 Giro for not doing anything the rest of the peloton wasn't doing explains the tragic end. Shame at being singled out is what drove him to cocaine and what eventually killed him.

Many disagree with my view but this is what I believe after following this sport closely since 1992 and watching Pantani during that period. David against the Goliaths of Indurain, Ullrich and then briefly Armstrong of that era. Others can believe what they want. Mostly people who didn't follow the sport in those days.


Couldn't be bothered, because it does not seem that you have any actual arguments in hand instead of the usual 'dur, he wuz different' hagiography stuff.

All I see is guesswork, the talent level you think Pantani had, what the rest were doing and the reasons for his downfall.

And on top of the guesswork is your ludicrous assumption that those who think differently to you did not follow the sport back then.

But maybe since you followed the sport 'closely' unlike most of us detractors, you can have an actual go in placing his results in context, starting with the ITTs?


Calm down. I've stated my arguments and you haven't debunked the logic. Guesswork? Ludicrous? We can only work with what we know. Your counter logic is vague and ill defined. Specifics might be helpful such as TT time losses but that can be countered too - in proper context. If you were closely following the sport at that time you would know the peloton was at ease with Marco then unlike for example Vino after his 2007 TT effort when nobody was surprised when he was caught.

I'm not Italian so I think I am reasonably objective here. Sorry if someone has the temerity to counter your logic. I suggest your read and think about your own post, You are guilty of the same as you accuse me of. I am attempting to bolster my argument with facts, logic and reason. Love to know how Pantani is more worthy of being nominated in this tread than Amstrong, Di Luca, Ricco or Riis. Over to you.


You stated ****. Hell, I am 100% certain that you do no know how many people who disagree with you actually followed the sport.

My 'counter' logic as you put it, is much more defined than anything that you managed to come up with despite you supposedly closely following the sport.

And I don't mind being wrong, but so far you have not come up with anything, but you are free to try again.

All available evidence indicates that Pantani was a Riis-level charger and if rumor of sample switching is ever confirmed to be true, he is absolutely more worthy than any of the 4 you mentioned to be nominated.
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17 May 2019 20:56

Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.
Cookster15
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Re: Re:

17 May 2019 21:04

Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Forget Pantani you are barking up the wrong tree a victim of the times not a villain.

For doping hall of shame surely we need to nominate Bjarne Riis. Showed up as a monster with veins popping out of his head in 1996. Mr 60%. Sent Indurain into retirement. So obvious.


So Riis Mr 60% is a villain and a monster, while Pantani with his mere 58% is a victim.


Well yes. Riis is still alive isn't he?


Would he be a victim in your eyes if he wasn't? From your pantomime villain description of him, I am guessing probably not.
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Re: Re:

17 May 2019 21:06

roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Forget Pantani you are barking up the wrong tree a victim of the times not a villain.

For doping hall of shame surely we need to nominate Bjarne Riis. Showed up as a monster with veins popping out of his head in 1996. Mr 60%. Sent Indurain into retirement. So obvious.


So Riis Mr 60% is a villain and a monster, while Pantani with his mere 58% is a victim.


Well yes. Riis is still alive isn't he?


Would he be a victim in your eyes if he wasn't? From your pantomime villain description of him, I am guessing probably not.


What Pantani showed in 1998 and 1999 we already saw from 1994. The Riis that turned up in 1996 was new. Obvious from the first ITT when he put 30 seconds into Indurain.
Cookster15
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Re:

17 May 2019 21:11

Cookster15 wrote:Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.


Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html
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Re: Re:

17 May 2019 21:14

Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Forget Pantani you are barking up the wrong tree a victim of the times not a villain.

For doping hall of shame surely we need to nominate Bjarne Riis. Showed up as a monster with veins popping out of his head in 1996. Mr 60%. Sent Indurain into retirement. So obvious.


So Riis Mr 60% is a villain and a monster, while Pantani with his mere 58% is a victim.


Well yes. Riis is still alive isn't he?


Would he be a victim in your eyes if he wasn't? From your pantomime villain description of him, I am guessing probably not.


What Pantani showed in 1998 and 1999 we already saw from 1994. The Riis that turned up in 1996 was new. Obvious from the first ITT when he put 30 seconds into Indurain.


What we already saw in 1994 was Pantani with hematocrit of over 50% (54,5% -during and then 58% the day after the Giro)
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Re: Re:

17 May 2019 21:17

roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.


Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html


Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(
Cookster15
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Re: Re:

17 May 2019 21:20

Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.


Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html


Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(


Edit: I did a Google translation. Okay, this is good and I see your point of view. But all you had to do was respectfully post that first time. Not difficult. "Nerve" :Question: Why is it a nerve to ask a question? It was an honest request.
Cookster15
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Re: Re:

17 May 2019 22:30

Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.


Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html


Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(


Hi Cookster,

I would recommend reading The Death of Marco Pantani by Matt Rendell. It goes into forensic detail about his doping.
Parker
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18 May 2019 04:31

Thanks Parker, I'll check that out I need a good book and I trust Rendell. Cheers.
Cookster15
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18 May 2019 12:54

WRT Pantani, the big difference presented here seems to be between those who believe doping had no major impact on his performance, and those who believe all his performance was down to doping. Anyone who seeks to occupy the middle ground gets shot by both sides.
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Re: Re:

18 May 2019 18:23

Parker wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.


Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html


Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(


Hi Cookster,

I would recommend reading The Death of Marco Pantani by Matt Rendell. It goes into forensic detail about his doping.


Is there an English version and is it available in the states?
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Re: Re:

18 May 2019 19:59

86TDFWinner wrote:
Parker wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:
roundabout wrote:
Cookster15 wrote:Calm down. This is opinion not life or death. Fine, then quote the evidence. Play the ball not than man. Thanks.


Wow, you have the nerve to ask me to quote the evidence?

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/pantapro/capo/capo.html

http://www.repubblica.it/online/sport/lista/pantani/pantani.html


Do you have English versions? But why couldn't you do that at the beginning? Why do you need to be prodded several times? This is an opinion forum not university. Better to figuratively speaking throw your arms around in the air as it quite typical here particularly with high post count posters. :(


Hi Cookster,

I would recommend reading The Death of Marco Pantani by Matt Rendell. It goes into forensic detail about his doping.


Is there an English version and is it available in the states?


The Rendell book is English and on Amazon so I am sure you can get it delivered to you in the states. Roundabout linked Italian stories no doubt they cover similar ground as the book but I'd trust Rendell more.
Cookster15
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Re:

19 May 2019 09:11

fmk_RoI wrote:WRT Pantani, the big difference presented here seems to be between those who believe doping had no major impact on his performance, and those who believe all his performance was down to doping. Anyone who seeks to occupy the middle ground gets shot by both sides.


I don't see how that makes a difference whatsoever. Hypothetical essays about how a race would've looked like if the riders competed without drugs are pointless. I don't think a mediocre athlete doping is significantly more deplorable than a talented athlete doping. They still each made their own choices.
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Re: Re:

19 May 2019 13:15

spalco wrote:
fmk_RoI wrote:WRT Pantani, the big difference presented here seems to be between those who believe doping had no major impact on his performance, and those who believe all his performance was down to doping. Anyone who seeks to occupy the middle ground gets shot by both sides.


I don't see how that makes a difference whatsoever. Hypothetical essays about how a race would've looked like if the riders competed without drugs are pointless. I don't think a mediocre athlete doping is significantly more deplorable than a talented athlete doping. They still each made their own choices.
I fear you have not understood what I actually posted. Certainly I haven't a clue what you're trying to say.
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19 May 2019 14:52

I just don't see any room for "middle ground" in this discussion. Either someone was doping or not. Some fans of particular riders seem to be excusing their doping because of their supposed natural talent and how unfair it is that supposedly lesser riders beat them by being better "responders" - Pantani is an example, Ullrich, Contador I guess.

And I think this distinction is meaningless. What exactly was it that you were trying to say?
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Re:

19 May 2019 15:42

spalco wrote:I just don't see any room for "middle ground" in this discussion.
There is loads of room for middle ground. Not all performance improvements are down to doping, that ought to be obvious to all. You can improve. The difficulty comes in saying where the improvement comes from. Some here want to say no one has any natural talent, that everything is doping, others go just as crazy but at the opposite extreme, imagine that doping made no real difference.
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