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Allen Lim interview

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Allen Lim interview

12 Sep 2009 15:50

This does not fill me with confidence, especially the way he downplays the value of EPO and talks about the importance of technology as another big reason for the increase in speeds from the early 90s. Same as JV in that regard.:(

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/allen-lim-clean-perspective
Doping died with Lance.
Digger
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12 Sep 2009 16:48

Digger wrote:This does not fill me with confidence, especially the way he downplays the value of EPO and talks about the importance of technology as another big reason for the increase in speeds from the early 90s. Same as JV in that regard.:(

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/allen-lim-clean-perspective

Wow. He forgot to mention Powerbars.

Does he entertain the notion that a doping doctors have actually used scientific methods to track their rider's performances and tailor their programs? There's a reason certain products and methods are common, because they have been shown over time to be effective.
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12 Sep 2009 19:23

Epicycle wrote:Wow. He forgot to mention Powerbars.

Does he entertain the notion that a doping doctors have actually used scientific methods to track their rider's performances and tailor their programs? There's a reason certain products and methods are common, because they have been shown over time to be effective.

unfortunately, Lim, JV, and I will even add Prentice Steffen have crossed to the dark side. They are not a bunch of naifs, they are wilfully ignorant, very much a "look no evil, hear no evil" operation.

Was it Aqua Sapone that called the team "a pack of ar$eholes"?

This American exceptionalism is wearing thin. And wearing thin fast. If I was a clean rider, and told by some team engaging in such a specious PR campaign that these results were possible, I would be damn angry. This is all their marketing with the strategic positioning of their brand. Don't they have "100% clean" slogans on their bidons? One writes it, axiomatically deigns it true?

I am sorry, but it is too much.

All the justifications he mentions have very marginal (declining) rate of return. Rolling resistance, drag coefficient, and sweat wicking kit, does not explain how some of his riders have transformed from mediocre professionals who never won a prestigious race, to being in the top 10 riders in the peloton.

I think Armstrong should outsource his PR contract to Garmin, this is a new revenue stream for them. When Armstrong next tenders his communications brief, I think Garmin can beat Public Strategies for the remit. Get some back office synergies there, <wink wink, if ya know what I mean>
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12 Sep 2009 22:27

Apparently what a rider needs to win races are confidence, believe, faith and positive thinking. This way you can beat riders who are using PED's.

BULL****!
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12 Sep 2009 23:13

blackcat wrote:...They are not a bunch of naifs, they are wilfully ignorant, very much a "look no evil, hear no evil" operation...This American exceptionalism is wearing thin. And wearing thin fast...This is all their marketing with the strategic positioning of their brand. Don't they have "100% clean" slogans on their bidons? One writes it, axiomatically deigns it true?


I automatically distrust "hear no evil, do no evil" behaviors but I'm not sure this is exactly the pattern we are seeing form Garmin. Running a clean team almost certainly means accepting fewer wins, so it makes sense to try and counteract the likely reduced media coverage with some positive spin. At the same time it's important to believe that it is possible to win any given race, otherwise riders are mentally defeated before they start. The belief structure Lim is describing would be a useful tool for this. I'm not saying I agree with all of it factually, just saying it's a useful tool.

As an anglophone, what Garmin are doing and saying makes some sense to me, although I have yet to form an opinion on whether or not the team actually is clean. My question for you is, what actions and public statements would you expect from a European team that was determined to be clean? Would it look any different? If not, it's the American exceptional-ism argument that's wearing thin...
User avatar I Watch Cycling In July
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12 Sep 2009 23:28

I Watch Cycling In July wrote:I automatically distrust "hear no evil, do no evil" behaviors but I'm not sure this is exactly the pattern we are seeing form Garmin. Running a clean team almost certainly means accepting fewer wins, so it makes sense to try and counteract the likely reduced media coverage with some positive spin. At the same time it's important to believe that it is possible to win any given race, otherwise riders are mentally defeated before they start. The belief structure Lim is describing would be a useful tool for this. I'm not saying I agree with all of it factually, just saying it's a useful tool.

As an anglophone, what Garmin are doing and saying makes some sense to me, although I have yet to form an opinion on whether or not the team actually is clean. My question for you is, what actions and public statements would you expect from a European team that was determined to be clean? Would it look any different? If not, it's the American exceptional-ism argument that's wearing thin...

I do not think they are in the least bit credible. And ultimately, branding and strategic position, must be underpinned by credibility. This will come back and bite them.

My criticism is primarily based on their disinformation. Armstrong deserves harsh criticism, because he is a pathological lier. Well, Slipstream have pulled all their communication strategy from the Bill Stapleton/Armstrong example. They may not run a systematic medical program with Spanish doctors yet plausible deniability is pure commercial expedience. How is there a practical difference with riders pursuing some plan on their own, as long as they keep their limits within the biological parameters.

The continental teams are realist, or outright dirty.
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12 Sep 2009 23:34

afpm90 wrote:Apparently what a rider needs to win races are confidence, believe, faith and positive thinking. This way you can beat riders who are using PED's.

BULL****!


100% agreed
I'd love to see the research from this Allen Lim proving to the world how is possible to raise your HCT, TT leves, performance, recovery & cycling skills by "having big confidence, positive thinking & clean methods".....:rolleyes:
but hey- some cyclist claims to the world that "you have to believe in miracles"
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12 Sep 2009 23:39

It's the usual smoke and mirrors stuff. If advances in psychology/nutrition/bike technology make the difference, how come guys on today's carbon wonder machines still can't beat Pantani's records for Alpe d'Huez, Mortirolo etc., set by a guy on inferior equipment, a crappy diet and with some pretty interesting psychological issues? It's because all these things are smallfry compared with increasing oxygen delivery to the cycling muscles. In the court of cycling, oxygen is king. All else is small change.
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12 Sep 2009 23:46

red_explosions wrote:It's the usual smoke and mirrors stuff. If advances in psychology/nutrition/bike technology make the difference, how come guys on today's carbon wonder machines still can't beat Pantani's records for Alpe d'Huez, Mortirolo etc., set by a guy on inferior equipment, a crappy diet and with some pretty interesting psychological issues? It's because all these things are smallfry compared with increasing oxygen delivery to the cycling muscles. In the court of cycling, oxygen is king. All else is small change.

and everything that Garmin does, can be neutralised. Using the free market model, if all these gains are possible, it stands to reason all other teams will enact such operations.

But the sport has been professional for a while, and many teams have dialed in those variables. Lemond, Banesto, Telekom, Saiz, Riis, Armstrong. All peripheral tinkering, has very marginal returns. No doubt they should be pursued, but stop spinning the public.

All this spin just reinforces the status quo, not actually a reform, and improvement. Smug self-satisfied disposition. Not helpful.
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13 Sep 2009 00:01

As our Lord and Guru once said, 'It ain't about the bike'.

Put it this way, if I went out and did a 40k TT clean on an all singing, all dancing carbon wunderbike; had a course of EPO and came back and did the same TT jacked at 60% on a run of the mill steel road bike, I'd bet my life savings (not that I have any) that the latter time would clock in easily faster than the first. But hey, it's all about aerodynamics, nicht wahr?
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13 Sep 2009 01:16

That interview is unbearable. I gave up after the first couple of paragraphs. All fluff and ideology. Lim needs a reality check or even better and couple of backhanders to knock him out of this daze.
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13 Sep 2009 01:31

unsheath wrote:That interview is unbearable. I gave up after the first couple of paragraphs. All fluff and ideology. Lim needs a reality check or even better and couple of backhanders to knock him out of this daze.


Yea, he lost me at:

AS: I guess I should clarify, you believe that doping simply helps the rider achieve his true potential, and that true potential is also achievable with ethical methods.

AL: That would be a fair point
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13 Sep 2009 02:01

Thoughtforfood wrote:Yea, he lost me at:

AS: I guess I should clarify, you believe that doping simply helps the rider achieve his true potential, and that true potential is also achievable with ethical methods.

AL: That would be a fair point


As much as I like Lim and JV this kind of $hit sucks. I have heard the same excuse for 25 years....."I am just restoring my natural levels with recovery therapy"
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13 Sep 2009 03:05

W ... T ... F
OK, it's not the Col d'Izoard, but it's a cool photo
:)
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13 Sep 2009 06:29

Thoughtforfood wrote:Yea, he lost me at:

AS: I guess I should clarify, you believe that doping simply helps the rider achieve his true potential, and that true potential is also achievable with ethical methods.

AL: That would be a fair point


So... I guess Lim figures that many of the world's most naturally gifted cyclists have paid hundreds of thousands of euros to obtain PED's simply because they are too lazy to adopt a gluten-free diet?
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13 Sep 2009 06:35

How funny is this quote from Lim:

"I also believe that doping deters performance, the culture of doping is quite an ironic one."

LOL. It's all a placebo at best, but really EPO actually deters performance! What a crock of shi!
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13 Sep 2009 07:37

Lim, can you remind me how much Landis' hematocrit went up at the Tour in 06? Come on doc, it aint too hard for you.

Lim, Steffen, Vaughters, Ellis, time to own up.
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13 Sep 2009 07:50

Allen Lim quotes from an interview last year.

"What I learned out of that experience was that it wasn’t physiology; it was a lot about your mind and mindset."

On Floyd's positive: "I was just very surprised, because it was totally unexpected. It would be the last thing I could ever dream of. I don’t think I’m naïve, I just like to believe in the best of people and stay focused on the positive and do the best that I can. There is so much that we cannot control.”

“You didn’t feel disappointed or betrayed?”


“No, because I didn’t know what was true or not true. I would have to make a lot of assumptions to feel betrayed.”

“No, you don’t have to make any assumptions,” I argue. “He used drugs. He tested positive. It’s in the urine.”

“You know, the bottom line for me is that I love cycling and I’m very easy to believe in people, and see the best in people, not ignoring the truth or ignoring the facts. I mean, that’s the whole basis of what we started here with this programme.”
“I felt badly for Floyd and . . . I would be really selfish or self-centred to make it about me - it wasn’t happening to me. Yeah, I had this experience but it wasn’t about me; and for me to think, ‘Oh, I feel sad or betrayed or upset’ would have been self-centred. I didn’t leave the 2006 Tour de France hatching some business plan to open up some coaching service or whatnot.

“Given your knowledge of physiology, I would imagine you were interested in the effects of doping in sport?”
“Not at all,”

The typing in bold is the interviewer. In this case, Paul Kimmage.
Doping died with Lance.
Digger
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13 Sep 2009 08:07

red_explosions wrote:As our Lord and Guru once said, 'It ain't about the bike'.

Put it this way, if I went out and did a 40k TT clean on an all singing, all dancing carbon wunderbike; had a course of EPO and came back and did the same TT jacked at 60% on a run of the mill steel road bike, I'd bet my life savings (not that I have any) that the latter time would clock in easily faster than the first. But hey, it's all about aerodynamics, nicht wahr?

I’m not entirely sure that's true, depending on what you mean by "road bike". The difference between a normal, internal gear road bike and a Tour bike is quite large, possibly even larger than the difference between EPO and not-EPO. The difference between a good quality racing bike bought in a regular shop and a Tour bike on the other hand is probably not that large, though still large enough that only an idiot would try to ride the Tour on the regular racer.
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13 Sep 2009 09:28

Digger wrote:Allen Lim quotes from an interview last year.

“Given your knowledge of physiology, I would imagine you were interested in the effects of doping in sport?”
“Not at all,”

The typing in bold is the interviewer. In this case, Paul Kimmage.

I just can't believe he really holds that attitude or is really naive enough to say in the NY Velocity interview..."for example, when Bannister broke the 4 minute mile, guess what? Everyone started breaking the 4 minute mile barrier. Was that because everyone found a new drug?".

Here's a homework assignment for Allen Lim. Go to IAAF.org and check the top times in history for different men's distance running events. There is no time achieved before 1992 anywhere near the top of any all time list for the common distances. Said Aouita, the incredible runner from the pre-EPO era is not even in the top 50 men all-time for the 5,000 meters. So why did the times begin to get so much faster in the early 1990's? Did their shoes get lighter or did the tracks get faster or was it EPO?
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