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RE: transgender women racing against women.

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Re: Re:

03 Mar 2019 15:46

Cookster15 wrote:
King Boonen wrote:It will only become an issue if trans athletes start winning Olympic medals


Olympic gold medallist Caster Semenya says it already is an issue. The science says hormone replacement therapy does not correct the residual advantages trans gender athletes have over athletes who are born female. As mentioned above, Martina Navratilova recently came out to mention this. It is fair to ban trans gender athletes from competing against born females? Probably not. But is isn't fair to let them compete against women who were born that way. Some things in life are not fair. That is just how it is.


Caster Semenya is not transgender. It really helps if you know what you are talking about before you start posting.
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03 Mar 2019 16:06

I think the crux of this is whether hormone treatment renders biological men into biological women, with no trace remaining of any of the physical advantages that men have over women.

Clearly the answer to the first part is no, and to second part probably not.
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03 Mar 2019 16:17

Plenty of women outperform plenty of men across all sports.

How do you define a "biological woman"?
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03 Mar 2019 16:43

King Boonen wrote:Plenty of women outperform plenty of men across all sports.


That is sophistry

How do you define a "biological woman"?


Born with ovaries and a womb, tits and a fanny would be a starting point
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Re:

03 Mar 2019 17:01

macbindle wrote:
King Boonen wrote:Plenty of women outperform plenty of men across all sports.


That is sophistry

How do you define a "biological woman"?


Born with ovaries and a womb, tits and a fanny would be a starting point


Why is it sophistry? You said men have physical advantages over women. Clearly that's not always the case is it? We've already pointed out that height isn't always an advantage. We can continue with other traits. If we want to look at McKinnon specifically then, as it's cycling, we can look at her power-to-weight, which is lower than several of her competitors, including Sarah Fader who pulled out of the championships. She came 11th in the Canadian National 500m TT. Good, but not great. No-one complained then. It seems everyone is fine with her competing when she loses, which she does a lot, but when she wins it's suddenly a problem.

So women born with Mayer-Rokitansky-Küster-Hauser Syndrome aren't women? Some women born with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome aren't women? How big do a woman's breasts have to be for you to accept they are a woman? If you are going to define it on biology do women have to prove they can get pregnant before they are considered women?
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03 Mar 2019 18:28

Do you think humans are split into two biological sexes? Yes? How do you differentiate between the two? You can point to exceptions all day long, but ultimately it isn't helpful and you leave yourself vulnerable to me turning it around on you.

Your argument seems to suggest that we should judge sports on an individual basis to decide if men and women should be separated.
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03 Mar 2019 22:42

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Re: RE: transgender women racing against women.

03 Mar 2019 23:01

macbindle is correct.

People can can point to exceptions all day long...

-0-

Rational unbiased thinking people have no problem with the statement that men are stronger than women. -That's too easy.

Reshape the statement / original post,

Women racing against transgender women.
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Re: RE: transgender women racing against women.

03 Mar 2019 23:31

macbindle,

I read the article You linked to. -An arrow splitting bull's-eye.
Insanity full on.

One positive: I wasn't aware of how this was a growing population and that means there is a need to create a transgender category for racers and all sports. Then I can not imagine We'll witness women signing up for races and competitions vs. transgender women in that category.

Will transgender athletes be happy to only race against other transgender athletes? I suspect their motives are not honest...

To Me, I feel aware that women are and have been marginalized, abused and taken advantage of by men throughout history and this is another instance in that history. I hope people and especially women speak up and stop this unfair sportsmanship dependent on not only insanity but on disrespecting and taking advantage of women in general.

Lately on a world scale there has evolved a growing consciousness of men abusing women in mind blowing myriad ways. A growing commitment to stop, expose, and eliminate those abuses.
That effort absolutely must include this issue.
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03 Mar 2019 23:41

I'm still on the fence. I can see the merits of both sides of the argument.
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Re:

04 Mar 2019 10:35

macbindle wrote:Do you think humans are split into two biological sexes?


Again, you're going to have to define those sexes. Classical biology defining XY sex characterisation requires that the male and female can reproduce, yet many, many women and men cannot due to phenotypic differences. There are also many people born who do not fit the XY definition of sex characterisation. I suggest that you read the work of Anne Fausto-Sterling as a quick entry into this.

Again, if this is how we are going to split sport you are going to exclude a lot of people, as was the case in the past. We've not even got onto the ethical and moral implications of depriving a group of a basic human right defined in the Olympic Charter (it's the 4th fundamental principal of Olympianism in case anyone wants to fact check me: https://stillmed.olympic.org/media/Document%20Library/OlympicOrg/General/EN-Olympic-Charter.pdf#_ga=2.191809071.460044862.1551693744-1183656713.1517488558)

Yes? How do you differentiate between the two? You can point to exceptions all day long, but ultimately it isn't helpful and you leave yourself vulnerable to me turning it around on you.


We a literally discussing exceptions. The cross-over between Olympic athletes and transgender people is zero. in terms of population, both of these groups are in such a minority that they almost don't exist. I think the last survey from the Williams Institute had the US transgender population at 0.6%. Olympic athletes (disregarding medal winners which is even smaller) is, I think, an even smaller proportion of the population. This follows on in the next point.

Your argument seems to suggest that we should judge sports on an individual basis to decide if men and women should be separated.


Not really. I'm pointing out why trans-women should be allowed to compete with women. I'm open to a discussion on changing how sport is structured as this isn't a new thing. The Scottish track league regularly has teenage girls beating fully grown men across all the races, and when Katie Archibald turns up you can guess what happens. The league itself is structured on ability (and some limits on age etc. that BC enforce). Why do the girls/women race against the men? Because if they didn't ride against the adult males they wouldn't be able to race. Enforcing a binary classification in sport would, effectively, ban these girls from racing. The phenotypic spread across the different groups is also very large, as you might expect in cycling.

This is, however, a very different discussion and impacts everyone. If people want to hold onto the binary definition of humans (where does this leave anyone in the LGBT community?) then they have to accept that they'll likely have a much larger negative impact on women's sport than allowing transgender people to compete. And by much larger I mean huge. Female participation in sport, compared to male participation is tiny, it will likely kill the development of female athletes across the board and set women's sport back decades.


Transgender people have been competing in sport openly for about 40 years. That's a long time. Here is a list of all the transgender people who have dominated their sport:



This doesn't seem like a huge deal does it? It seems that people are actually fine with transgender people competing, just not winning. Would you, or anyone else have cared if Rachel McKinnon had lost all her races (because she lost most of them I believe)? Of course not. This wouldn't even have come up. Where was the outrage when Chris Mosier, a trans man, qualified for team USA in the duathlon? There wasn't any. In fact, according to most people, this is impossible. We can't allow people to compete but ban them when they win. This kind of thing has gone on before.


This is an incredibly difficult discussion to have, particularly when it attracts other posters who post transphobic nonsense which is best ignored. I feel like it's getting broken up and talking around the point already. If, in the future, trans women start winning every medal at the Olympics, World Championships, every race on the road (there is a transwoman racing professionally in cycling, that doesn't seem to have caused outrage...) make up all of the players at the womens world cup and so on maybe then it's time to reassess. That's not likely though is it?
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04 Mar 2019 11:19

In practical terms it is almost a non-issue, but that doesn't really inform the debate in terms of biological science, or ethics.

I suppose it matters in so far as some cis athletes are pissed off with it. At the risk of being called a TERF I can understand the aggrieved feminists arguments.

Anyway, a long detailed answer from you, and thanks.A lot for me to consider and I won't be able to get to it until tomorrow.
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04 Mar 2019 14:11

It helps with ethics, as to deny someone a right for something that isn't an issue is clearly crazy. It terms of biology it becomes much more complicated, but as I've mentioned before, phenotypic separation by some measure is much more effective than genotypic (this is effectively what happens in track leagues in the UK with A, B, C and D groups, CX A and B races, even the Tour De France where GC riders, puncheurs, rouleurs and sprinters all compete for different goals under the same umbrella race). But this is shifting the question as to whether trans-women should compete against women. The research points to that they should. If people want to disagree with that they need to back it up.

I can understand their being aggrieved, but the evidence doesn't back their position. It invariably falls back on the "they look like they have an advantage" but the history of transgender participation in sport shows this clearly isn't the case. Do these same people think a stick bends when you place half of it underwater? I doubt it. I wouldn't call anyone I am discussing this with a TERF, especially not someone who clearly wants to discuss and understand the two positions. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, although I fall on the inclusion side quite heavily.
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Re:

04 Mar 2019 14:55

King Boonen wrote:It helps with ethics, as to deny someone a right for something that isn't an issue is clearly crazy. It terms of biology it becomes much more complicated, but as I've mentioned before, phenotypic separation by some measure is much more effective than genotypic (this is effectively what happens in track leagues in the UK with A, B, C and D groups, CX A and B races, even the Tour De France where GC riders, puncheurs, rouleurs and sprinters all compete for different goals under the same umbrella race). But this is shifting the question as to whether trans-women should compete against women. The research points to that they should. If people want to disagree with that they need to back it up.

I can understand their being aggrieved, but the evidence doesn't back their position. It invariably falls back on the "they look like they have an advantage" but the history of transgender participation in sport shows this clearly isn't the case. Do these same people think a stick bends when you place half of it underwater? I doubt it. I wouldn't call anyone I am discussing this with a TERF, especially not someone who clearly wants to discuss and understand the two positions. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, although I fall on the inclusion side quite heavily.

What is the research that suggest they shoudl be able to compete?
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Re: Re:

04 Mar 2019 15:05

Red Rick wrote:
King Boonen wrote:It helps with ethics, as to deny someone a right for something that isn't an issue is clearly crazy. It terms of biology it becomes much more complicated, but as I've mentioned before, phenotypic separation by some measure is much more effective than genotypic (this is effectively what happens in track leagues in the UK with A, B, C and D groups, CX A and B races, even the Tour De France where GC riders, puncheurs, rouleurs and sprinters all compete for different goals under the same umbrella race). But this is shifting the question as to whether trans-women should compete against women. The research points to that they should. If people want to disagree with that they need to back it up.

I can understand their being aggrieved, but the evidence doesn't back their position. It invariably falls back on the "they look like they have an advantage" but the history of transgender participation in sport shows this clearly isn't the case. Do these same people think a stick bends when you place half of it underwater? I doubt it. I wouldn't call anyone I am discussing this with a TERF, especially not someone who clearly wants to discuss and understand the two positions. That's exactly what I'm trying to do, although I fall on the inclusion side quite heavily.

What is the research that suggest they shoudl be able to compete?


This is a good place to start:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sxo2stksk9yctq1/Including%20Trans%20Women%20Athletes%20in%20Sport_%20Analyzing%20Principles%20and%20Policies%20of%20Fairness%20in%20Competition.pdf?dl=0
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06 Mar 2019 15:14

And for those who claim they can tell just by looking at someone:

Image

Be honest. There's no way you'd say this guy is transgender (woman to man).
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06 Mar 2019 16:43

Here's a question for you KB. Would you go out with a trans woman?

If yes, would you draw a line? Self-identifying trans woman with penis? If not, why not. No wiggling out of this.

Might seem flippant or a trap, but its neither. I think you can predict my answer, and the reason why.

Meanwhile:

Stop talking about testosterone – there’s no such thing as a ‘true sex’

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/06/testosterone-biological-sex-sports-bodies?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
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06 Mar 2019 18:44

I’m not sure what my dating preferences have to do with transgender women in sport? Or even a definition of women?

That Guardian article seems, based on the headline, to be about what I’ve discussed above. I’ll chdck it out.
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Re:

06 Mar 2019 19:11

King Boonen wrote:I’m not sure what my dating preferences have to do with transgender women in sport? Or even a definition of women?


I think it has everything to do with the practical definition of women as I see it. I was trying to find a way of understanding the view that trans women are women, from any angle I could, but really it struck that whatever I might say, I'd never date a trans woman which means that regardless of any arguments I may accept a priori, I don't actually believe they are women. I think with self-identifying women (man in dress with penis) it's a pretty easy thought experiment.

To be clear, Im not saying that my dating preferences determine their identity, just how I understand/perceive their identity. Equally, Im aware that this thought is exactly the sort of thing you might see on some horrid right-wing hate blog.

That Guardian article seems, based on the headline, to be about what I’ve discussed above. I’ll chdck it out.


Its all about testosterone, and yes, it's very much in line with what you have been saying.
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11 Mar 2019 16:42

The site is now working again!

I would like to think that, if I'm attracted to someone I'd date them. I can't honestly say what would happen but I'm also under no illusion that what I think should dictate anything in this discussion, same as you. There are many cis-gender women I have met who I wouldn't date, that doesn't mean they are not women. This was even covered in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.
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