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RE: transgender women racing against women.

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Re:

11 Mar 2019 17:37

King Boonen wrote:The site is now working again!

I would like to think that, if I'm attracted to someone I'd date them. I can't honestly say what would happen but I'm also under no illusion that what I think should dictate anything in this discussion, same as you. There are many cis-gender women I have met who I wouldn't date, that doesn't mean they are not women. This was even covered in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.


It won't dictate the discussion, but it does provide some information and it does help clarify thoughts.

I can't see the relevance of unattractive cis women, because I'm assuming you didn't not date them because you thought they were men. It was some other quality that rendered them unattractive.

I think Paris Lees is very beautiful but something very visceral, which i suspect is my sexuality, would prevent me from dating her, because truly I don't believe she is a woman, even though for her sake I wish I did. Of course I'm not saying my sexual preferences should determine how somebody feels about themself, or indeed what pronouns I use, but I'm not going to ignore my feelings entirely. That seems to me to be intellectually dishonest.

I've no idea what It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia is, and so therefore cannot tell you whether this topic is covered to my satisfaction.
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13 Mar 2019 18:23

This thread seems to be drifting off a topic worthy of serious debate. Okay I was wrong on Semenya but that does not mean it is right that trans gender athletes be able to compete against females due to political correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a male or female nearly every person on the planet understands and should not need to be spelled out. This thread concerns trans gender. Trans gender means the person was born a female but has undergone medical procedures supplemented by hormone treatment so a born male can live their lives as a female. What is required in this thread is more debate on whether trans gender women have a physical advantage competing in sport against women who were born as women?

What does science say? I have read that there are scientific studies that show this is the case. Long after the person has made the switch, hormone treatments don't reverse the residual strength advantages the athlete has from them being born male. This is what Martina Navratilova claimed and of course was slammed due to the usual political correctness, oh you can't say that!

Testosterone levels are not the only determinant of male physical strength advantage. There are residual benefits in strength long after testosterone is adjusted back to female levels. An analogy is doping with testosterone or blood doping which can enable a cyclist to train harder and recover than if they were clean. When the big race arrives the doping is stopped to avoid detection but the physical benefits remain. This seems similar to trans gender.

My attitude to this subject is simple. Is it fair to prevent trans gender women competing against born females? No. But life wasn't meant to be fair. That just the way it is. Fair competition for the overwhelming majority should be placed ahead of what is deemed fair for a small minority.
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Re:

14 Mar 2019 14:15

Cookster15 wrote:This thread seems to be drifting off a topic worthy of serious debate. Okay I was wrong on Semenya but that does not mean it is right that trans gender athletes be able to compete against females due to political correctness.

The definition of what constitutes a male or female nearly every person on the planet understands and should not need to be spelled out.


If it's so easy then spell it out. Show how it's easy to split the population into male or female and give your definition. It must be really easy...

This thread concerns trans gender. Trans gender means the person was born a female but has undergone medical procedures supplemented by hormone treatment so a born male can live their lives as a female. What is required in this thread is more debate on whether trans gender women have a physical advantage competing in sport against women who were born as women?


Whether debate is required is part of the discussion. See the next bit.

What does science say? I have read that there are scientific studies that show this is the case. Long after the person has made the switch, hormone treatments don't reverse the residual strength advantages the athlete has from them being born male. This is what Martina Navratilova claimed and of course was slammed due to the usual political correctness, oh you can't say that!


Please post links to these studies. Please define "residual strength advantages".

Navratilova was slammed for being transphobic. Raising this as if there is an urgent need for a discussion is transphobic. Since Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics there have been approximately 54,000 Olympic athletes. 0 of these athletes have been transgender. Does that seem like a crisis that needs urgent discussion? Or does it seem like a complete non-issue? If it's a non-issue why do you think people are pushing so hard to try and limit trans-rights in this area? Personally I think it's a perfect example of "the thin end of the wedge". Transphobes find a cause that they can get people behind, limit rights here and then push for further limiting of rights. That's exactly what is happening, just look at the discussions around trans-women in female only spaces. The more this debate is made legitimate the more likely it is that trans people will experience hate.


Testosterone levels are not the only determinant of male physical strength advantage. There are residual benefits in strength long after testosterone is adjusted back to female levels. An analogy is doping with testosterone or blood doping which can enable a cyclist to train harder and recover than if they were clean. When the big race arrives the doping is stopped to avoid detection but the physical benefits remain. This seems similar to trans gender.


Those two things are not equivalent. An understanding of basic biochemistry will tell you that. One is a consistent suppression below the individuals natural levels, the other is a transient increase with a return to natural levels. Please post the studies that prove this is the case.

If this is purely about the science then you can highlight the problems you have with the evidence used to back up the IOC's rules for transgender inclusion. I'm not an endocrinologist but I've got a fairly decent understanding so feel free to be specific.

My attitude to this subject is simple. Is it fair to prevent trans gender women competing against born females? No. But life wasn't meant to be fair. That just the way it is. Fair competition for the overwhelming majority should be placed ahead of what is deemed fair for a small minority.


Please define fair competition. Differences across the "male" and "female" population are much bigger than differences between those population means. Is this fair? It's already understood that world level athletes are the top tiny fraction of a percent. Should these people be excluded? They are only part of the "overwhelming majority" by the terms you set out. Change that slightly and suddenly they are a tiny minority.

The Olympic charter defines the right to compete in sport as a human right. Are you comfortable with limiting peoples human rights?


I just want to repeat this section because I think it's incredibly important:

"Since Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics there have been approximately 54,000 Olympic athletes. 0 of these athletes have been transgender. Does that seem like a crisis that needs urgent discussion? Or does it seem like a complete non-issue? If it's a non-issue why do you think people are pushing so hard to try and limit trans-rights in this area? Personally I think it's a perfect example of "the thin end of the wedge". Transphobes find a cause that they can get people behind, limit rights here and then push for further limiting of rights. That's exactly what is happening, just look at the discussions around trans-women in female only spaces. The more this debate is made legitimate the more likely it is that trans people will experience hate."
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Today 14:47

Anyone who thinks this is just about sports clearly isn't paying attention:

https://twitter.com/parislees/status/1108363203866701825
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Today 14:53

Well she is certainly right about 'free speech' being used as a justification for hateful commentary.

But, this does not delegitimise a conversation of the position of trans women in women's sports
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Today 15:21

There's several points in my post above. We can move the conversation back to that. Most pertinent to the discussion is likely this:

Since Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics there have been approximately 54,000 Olympic athletes. 0 of these athletes have been transgender. Does that seem like a crisis that needs urgent discussion?
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Today 15:35

Several female athletes seem to think it is, particularly since sport is not confined to the Olympics.

I'm not sure how weight of numbers has a bearing on principle.
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Re: RE: transgender women racing against women.

Today 16:43

King Boonen,
quote
“There's several points in my post above. We can move the conversation back to that. Most pertinent to the discussion is likely this:

Since Trans athletes have been able to compete in the Olympics there have been approximately 54,000 Olympic athletes. 0 of these athletes have been transgender. Does that seem like a crisis that needs urgent discussion?”

-0-

We can move conversation back to that but it’s not limited to “that.” Pertinent, yes; but not “most” pertinent.

Most women facing racing against transwomen is not on the Olympic platform and the Olympics record / stats should not be used to make decisions regarding this issue in that context, as though it is all the info We need to settle the issue. –It’s not about the Olympics.

Whether or not this topic represents a “crisis” or that it “needs urgent discussion” isn’t dependent on how many women have lost in competition in the Olympics against transwomen. That statistic should NOT be used in order to diminish the overall effect women must overcome to simply live a normal life in in their eyes.

More men telling women how they should feel is getting old to women for a long time now.

Your right to swing Your fist ends where My nose begins. –That’s an accurate way many women may feel regarding the subject.

Science regarding this issue seems skewed and manipulated by the very people who stand to gain… -reverting to science is less convincing & at times is honestly discounted.

Women MAY PROPERLY FEEL AS THOUGH THEY have been abused, disrespected etc by men throughout their existence; & this is just another way man continues in that tradition.
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Today 16:55

Sorry GCW, you're going to have to post and quote coherently if you want me to keep replying. I'll do my best to answer:

The argument is about transwomen dominating womens sport. That means the top level so the Olympics is a very good proxy, but feel free to pick others. At lower level competition men and women compete against each other all the time. I can go down the velodrome in Glasgow tonight and watch a 16 year old girl beating grown men in scratch, points and elimination races. She races against them because there aren't enough girls her age, or even women, to hold a race, let alone good enough to provide her with competition. This is common in many individual sports. If you are going to start arguing that sport at all levels should be split along some arbitrary gender line then I'm afraid I'm out. This would eliminate a huge amount of competition and effectively ban several female athletes from competing.

You're making an assumption that women don't support transwomen. Every woman I've spoken to in person, some very good athletes, support transwomen competing. I've made sure to discuss it with them and find out how they feel, not rely on social media. There is a reason that many of the articles being shared by retired athletes who may think they are just supporting women's sport have transphobic statements in them. It's because it's not about sports.

The rest of your post has transphobic undertones. It very much reads like you are referring to transwomen as men. I'm sorry if that's not the case.
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Re:

Today 16:59

macbindle wrote:Several female athletes seem to think it is, particularly since sport is not confined to the Olympics.

I'm not sure how weight of numbers has a bearing on principle.


Retired athletes if we're being specific. I'm yet to see a huge outcry from current female athletes. For example I don't hear many in the pro women's peloton complaining.


See my reply to GCW. The discussion is about transwomen dominating women's sport and the Olympics is obviously a good proxy for that. If we are talking about all levels of sport transwomen won't dominate them. ~0.6% of the population is trans. See also my points about lower level competition where male and female athletes compete against each other, I'd be very worried about removing that.
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Today 17:12

If your argument is that the problem of tranwomen competing in women's sport is insignificant, then can you not see how that same argument could be used against transwomen competing in women's sport?
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Re:

Today 17:15

macbindle wrote:If your argument is that the problem of tranwomen competing in women's sport is insignificant, then can you not see how that same argument could be used against transwomen competing in women's sport?


No. Removing rights is not equivalent to enabling them.
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Today 17:18

Again, that same argument can be applied to the obverse proposition.(Cis) Women might feel their rights to compete in fair sports are being removed.
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Today 17:21

There's that word "feel" again. The evidence shows that this isn't happening. 0 out of 54,000 Olympians. 0 trans world-champions. I transwoman in the pro peloton who is nowhere near even being selected for her national team. Cis women dominate women's sport. This is becoming circular.
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Today 17:29

Some of Rachel (forgotten her surname)'s competitors objected to her presence. I'm not sure why you fixate on the Olympics.
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Re: RE: transgender women racing against women.

Today 17:33

King Boonen,
First off, thank you for good discussion; it's the only way.

I believe I understand how You perceive the discussion, however, I feel the argument is NOT about transwomen DOMINATING womens sport.

When I originally started this post I thought this issue also included small town sports venues along with all instances, which may include the Olympics & not limited to if and when transwomen dominated... The consideration is everywhere girls show up and may find themselves competing against girls / women that were initially boys.

King Booned quoting,
"I can go down the velodrome in Glasgow tonight and watch a 16 year old girl beating grown men in scratch, points and elimination races. She races against them because there aren't enough girls her age, or even women, to hold a race, let alone good enough to provide her with competition. This is common in many individual sports. If you are going to start arguing that sport at all levels should be split along some arbitrary gender line then I'm afraid I'm out. This would eliminate a huge amount of competition and effectively ban several female athletes from competing."

In some people's mind, that doesn't apply. Where there are limited choices, I understand and have seen that type of competition take place. People understand that.

That's not the same thing, is it?

In the future, when there are enough transwomen to have their own race category, say in a bicycle race for example & there is also a category for women born as women, there may also be women allowed to race against transgender women but unlikely to see transwomen at that time allowed to race against natural born women.

Are the grown men allowed to race against the 16 year old girl?
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Re:

Today 17:51

macbindle wrote:Some of Rachel (forgotten her surname)'s competitors objected to her presence. I'm not sure why you fixate on the Olympics.


Two objected when she won, they were fine with her competing when they beat her. For me, that pretty much invalidates any argument they might make.

The Olympics is a epitome of competition so it gives us the best marker of transgender impact. It also has the most easily accessible data. As I’ve said, if you want to pick a different area of competition we can discuss how trans women aren’t dominating that either.
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Today 17:55

GCW, I’m just heading out for a ride. To answer your question, yes, the 16 year old girl competes against grown men and beats them. She has since she was 14, I think. She’s one example, there are more.

The rest of your post I have problems with, you seem to be implying that there are lots of transgender athletes. There aren’t. You can probably find articles about, maybe, 10.

I’ll repeat, at a lower level females, of all ages, compete against males, of all ages, in many sports.
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Re: Re:

Today 18:17

King Boonen wrote:
macbindle wrote:Some of Rachel (forgotten her surname)'s competitors objected to her presence. I'm not sure why you fixate on the Olympics.


Two objected when she won, they were fine with her competing when they beat her. For me, that pretty much invalidates any argument they might make.


For me it doesn't. The question of biological advantage remains win or lose. If you argument holds water then there would be a case for only banning dopers who win

The Olympics is a epitome of competition so it gives us the best marker of transgender impact. It also has the most easily accessible data. As I’ve said, if you want to pick a different area of competition we can discuss how trans women aren’t dominating that either.


The Olympics is a rarified world and is hardly representative of sport such as the vast majority of people experience it. Again, go back to my previous point about doping. It matters not a jot that trans women aren't dominating.
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Re: RE: transgender women racing against women.

Today 18:42

Sorry, I was not very clear:
King Booned quoting,
"I can go down the velodrome in Glasgow tonight and watch a 16 year old girl beating grown men in scratch, points and elimination races. She races against them because there aren't enough girls her age, or even women, to hold a race, let alone good enough to provide her with competition. This is common in many individual sports. If you are going to start arguing that sport at all levels should be split along some arbitrary gender line then I'm afraid I'm out. This would eliminate a huge amount of competition and effectively ban several female athletes from competing."


In some people's mind, that doesn't apply. Where there are limited choices, I understand and have seen that type of competition take place. People understand that.

That's not the same thing, is it?

In the future, when there are enough transwomen to have their own race category, say in a bicycle race for example & there is also a category for women born as women, there may also be women allowed to race against transgender women but unlikely to see transwomen at that time allowed to race against natural born women.

By extension:

Are the grown men allowed to sign up to race in the 16 year old girls catagory?
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