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should vino be forgiven ?

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should vino be forgiven ?

Yes
98
67%
NO
31
21%
On the fence
17
12%
 
Total votes : 146

should vino be forgiven ?

27 Apr 2010 10:03

i’m a bit confused if not disappointed (to be honest) with how vino’s victory at liege was received...i know the history and all that.

but I want to sort it out and make it simple - should vino be forgiven for his past sins ?



(mods. i hope the poll stays out of the clinic because my question is about forgiveness )
User avatar python
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27 Apr 2010 10:10

To be forgiven he must first seek forgiveness. I have no problem with allowing people to serve their suspensions and come back to the peloton as long as they come clean about what they have done and at least pretend to be making an effort to reform. Vino got caught absolutely red-handed, and has done nothing but deny, deny, deny.
User avatar Jamsque
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27 Apr 2010 10:14

Jamsque wrote:To be forgiven he must first seek forgiveness. I have no problem with allowing people to serve their suspensions and come back to the peloton as long as they come clean about what they have done and at least pretend to be making an effort to reform. Vino got caught absolutely red-handed, and has done nothing but deny, deny, deny.


You are wrong...
User avatar TRDean
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27 Apr 2010 10:42

Fine, tell us why as opposed to making a statement
Argue it with rational conclusions to why he is wrong, because from where I see it you have less of a case than Jamsque
744
User avatar Notso Swift
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27 Apr 2010 10:44

ha, no fence-sitters yet ?
User avatar python
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27 Apr 2010 10:44

Jamsque wrote:To be forgiven he must first seek forgiveness. I have no problem with allowing people to serve their suspensions and come back to the peloton as long as they come clean about what they have done and at least pretend to be making an effort to reform. Vino got caught absolutely red-handed, and has done nothing but deny, deny, deny.


Unlike, say, David Millar? Or Tyler Hamilton? Or Floyd Landis? Or Lance Armstrong? Or (insert name of doper here)?

I doubt very much that Vino is seeking forgiveness - he's a pro, he knows the score - but the hypocricy of the reaction in some quarters is simply a joke.
bianchigirl
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27 Apr 2010 10:48

Notso Swift wrote:Fine, tell us why as opposed to making a statement
Argue it with rational conclusions to why he is wrong, because from where I see it you have less of a case than Jamsque


edited by mod : overaggressive and insulting
User avatar TRDean
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27 Apr 2010 10:54

I was a big fan of Vino back in the day, I don't think anyone would deny that he is an exciting and aggressive rider. When he got caught, he acted (much like Landis) as though the whole thing was some huge conspiracy that had been concocted specifically to slander and defame him. I think that is doing a massive disservice to his fans. When he got caught he should have been man enough to admit he made a mistake, instead of treating his supporters like idiots by feeding them a line of bull****.

Also, Dean? Back off. It would be nice to for once have a discussion without it descending into personal attacks before the end of the first page.
User avatar Jamsque
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27 Apr 2010 10:55

Notso Swift wrote:Fine, tell us why as opposed to making a statement
Argue it with rational conclusions to why he is wrong, because from where I see it you have less of a case than Jamsque

let me remark that i meant the poll to be less of a rational analysis exercise (you can't rationalize forgiveness) and more a personal opinion expression.

there is no reasonable way to argue that my set of criteria for forgiveness for say rider X is 'better' than yours etc. that's why i dont agree with your stance demanding answers from trdean. i disagree with jamsque but i accept the difference without insisting on being right..unless i detect inconsistency and hypocrisy.
User avatar python
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27 Apr 2010 11:03

Jamsque wrote:I was a big fan of Vino back in the day, I don't think anyone would deny that he is an exciting and aggressive rider. When he got caught, he acted (much like Landis) as though the whole thing was some huge conspiracy that had been concocted specifically to slander and defame him. I think that is doing a massive disservice to his fans. When he got caught he should have been man enough to admit he made a mistake, instead of treating his supporters like idiots by feeding them a line of bull****.

Also, Dean? Back off. It would be nice to for once have a discussion without it descending into personal attacks before the end of the first page.


No back off here...I was attacked first...not by you...but none the less. I see where your opinion lies...no problem there. But I think you are going back over two years and characterizing Vino...lately he has been contrite.
User avatar TRDean
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27 Apr 2010 11:08

So Jamsque, this is about you feeling let down by Vino, right? One of the advantages of being a fan of the sport rather than individual riders is that you don't get disappointed by human nature ;)
bianchigirl
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27 Apr 2010 11:19

bianchigirl wrote:So Jamsque, this is about you feeling let down by Vino, right? One of the advantages of being a fan of the sport rather than individual riders is that you don't get disappointed by human nature ;)


I like to think I'm a fan of both, and yes, I do feel let down by Vino in a way, just as I feel let down by Basso and Piepoli and Ricco' and Millar and all the other guys I rooted for who got caught. I feel that if they are willing to admit what they did, acknowledge that it was wrong and apologise to their fans for betraying their trust, then I am willing to forgive them for cheating. If they are going to take me for a fool and try to convince me that they are the victims of some sinister group trying to besmirch their good name then I am not.
User avatar Jamsque
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27 Apr 2010 11:28

He should be banned for life. The guy is unrepentant.

It's funny how he "doesn't know what he has done to deserve this".. :rolleyes:
User avatar Nick777
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27 Apr 2010 11:36

Well it's nothing personal about Vino for me, he is probably no worse than many other cyclists. His win just made such an obvious point: "The system doesn't work". Sure you feel like that after a lot of races but it was so undeniable this time, not only are the tests ineffective but the punishments doesn't do crap either. It's hard to see how this sport can clean up anytime soon.
sida-mot
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27 Apr 2010 11:41

Jamsque wrote:I like to think I'm a fan of both, and yes, I do feel let down by Vino in a way, just as I feel let down by Basso and Piepoli and Ricco' and Millar and all the other guys I rooted for who got caught. I feel that if they are willing to admit what they did, acknowledge that it was wrong and apologise to their fans for betraying their trust, then I am willing to forgive them for cheating. If they are going to take me for a fool and try to convince me that they are the victims of some sinister group trying to besmirch their good name then I am not.

But are you sure that Millar and his "I doped that one time, but I regret it and I'm clean now" isn't playing you for a fool just as much as Vino? Let alone "I only attempted to dope".
Cerberus
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27 Apr 2010 11:43

Yes.......
Jan the Man
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27 Apr 2010 11:45

That was one hell of an impressive win at LBL. The man paid his dues like so many other riders in the peloton today. Folks cheer on Millar, Basso, the French went nuts for Virenque when he came back etc...

Forgive, let him get on with his profession. He's a great rider and he puts some real fire under the peloton.
eleven
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27 Apr 2010 12:06

If vino can be forgiven, so should Rasmussen. either you forgive everyone or you dont
saxofan
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27 Apr 2010 12:08

Forgiven?? By who? Us?

The only thing that bothers me is that people want him to say he's sorry. Others did that and they're fine now. Don't matter how low they went before that (Basso) or after that (Millar).
The only difference between the Vino case and those two is that Vino 'lied' to you once, the so-called apologists twice.

I rather have someone who comes back to just win races than some Born Again - Holier Than Thou A-hole.
User avatar ak-zaaf
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27 Apr 2010 12:15

The whole PR charade of forgiveness is just that, a charade. All of them are just sorry that they were caught.
The Sheep
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