Log in:  

Register

Have bike makers gone mad?

Which tyres for Paris-Roubaix? Whose time trial bike is fastest? Suspension mountain bikes or singlespeeders? Talk equipment here.

Have bike makers gone mad?

11 May 2009 12:52

I have to admit that I am amazed at how quickly, almost absurdly quickly, that prices for bikes and components have gone through the roof of late. A case in point:

A 2009 Hyundai Accent lists (no discounts mind you) for $12,745.

A new Pinarello Prince, with Super Record group and set of Zipp 404 hoops in a package discout from a reputable dealer costs $11,420.61.

I hope you were not expecting a power meter with that?

So, hundreds of pounds of steel, with a roof, four wheels, with an engine provided to help you get up those hills (and who among us wouldn't like one of those from time to time as we slog up a hill?) now only costs about a grand more than a few pounds of titanium and carbon fiber?

I have no problem paying for premium quality, and even paying a great deal more for the obvious quality differences between a department store huffy and a real racer, but this has just gotten absurd. Engineering and raw material costs for bikes cannot be equal to that of cars (even small cars). There is an obvious disconnect here when a additional cog and the loss of a few grams now costs $3,000 dollars (For which, if you use Ebay, you can get a fully equipped, with old Dura Ace or Campy, full carbon bike).

I think SRAM has it right, as it has a high end gruppo with amazing quality, and a new Rival and Force group that are both high quality and reasonably affordable.

I was also happy to see Colnago drop the price on its excellent, to put it mildly, C50, and then flabbergasted to see them charging $6,500 for the new EPS. I realize the prices are set by what the market will pay, but the downside is that only fleeting few will be able to dabble in their fantasy by riding the same bike as their hero up the same mountains or along the same routes.

Undoutedly, this was not a problem in the Merckx era.
gree0232
Junior Member
 
Posts: 547
Joined: 11 May 2009 12:26

11 May 2009 13:02

gree0232 wrote:A 2009 Hyundai Accent lists (no discounts mind you) for $12,745.

A new Pinarello Prince, with Super Record group and set of Zipp 404 hoops in a package discout from a reputable dealer costs $11,420.61.


One of them will get you from A to B and has a better saftey rating...oh poor Hyundai will never shake its stigma.

Cheers
Greg Johnson
Greg Johnson
 
Posts: 372
Joined: 03 Mar 2009 07:22
Location: Sydney

11 May 2009 13:23

The price has nothing to do with the engineering or the quality or the cost of the materials or the manufacturing. The biggest feature of expensive, top end bikes is the price. That is essentially what they are selling: The price. There is a certain segment of the market that's primary purchase criteria is a cost that will impress their riding buddies.

Hence you get insane paradoxes like a custom frame handmade in the U.S. by craftsmen making a living wage in America can cost less money than a mass produced frame made in China by people making a fraction of the U.S. minimum wage.

It is also the reason why costs have way outstripped inflation. Every manufacturer wants to price their product as high or higher than everyone elses, so there is a positive feedback loop. This seems to affect just most everything in cycling. The only thing I can think of that seems to be immune is tires.

Thank the yuppies. The same type of jerkoff who overpays relative to his income for a BMW to impress his neighbors will buy a bike on credit to impress his group ride bros.
"Listen, my son. Trust no one! You can count on no one but yourself. Improve your skills, son. Harden your body. Become a number one man. Do not ever let anyone beat you!" -- Gekitotsu! Satsujin ken
User avatar BroDeal
Senior Member
 
Posts: 13,320
Joined: 18 Mar 2009 00:41
Location: Above 5000 feet

11 May 2009 16:23

guys who need a $12,000 bike get them for free.
yuppies=low performance drivers in high performance cars.
User avatar krebs303
Senior Member
 
Posts: 18,276
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 11:26
Location: Mexico

11 May 2009 16:47

guys who need a $12,000 bike get them for free.


Yeah, but keep in mind that just ten years ago the average cost of owning a "pro" bike was around 2k. Granted these were steel and aluminum, but still attainable for the average rube. Back in '98 I bought a Colnago MasterXLight for $900 F&F, today that same rig is $2500. If you want to ride a carbon "pro" bike now, you either have to be in the correct tax bracket, or be extremely irresponsible with credit cards. Unfair pricing practices took over in the bike industry once carbon bikes and parts became more reliable, which was only about 5 years ago. Before then, at my former employer which is a huge part of the industry, handled more structural and catastrophic failures of carbon stuff than you would care to know. I didn't buy into carbon until a couple years ago, and picked up an unbranded Dedacciai Nero Corsa F&F for $1300. There are still deals to be had if you're not obsessed with brand names.
User avatar RDV4ROUBAIX
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,697
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 20:16
Location: Denver, Colorado

11 May 2009 17:39

Image



In 1999 my tri bike w/Hed 3 Wheels was $3400 USD . Frames ran $1200/1500. dura-ace $900. I have no interest in moving to carbon. My next bike will be a custom steel. I love the ride. I sure like the looks of the Pinnerello Prince. but for it would just be Bling. Some of my favorite bikes have been cobbled together from parts found in the trash. I can't drive by and not look. but I only take high class junk these days.
Prices now are amazing. I don't care for electric shifting and run mechanical discs on my MTB. Just easier to fix on the trail or road. Or I'm just getting old
User avatar krebs303
Senior Member
 
Posts: 18,276
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 11:26
Location: Mexico

11 May 2009 19:08

I always find this sort of thing ridiculous. Are you somehow arguing that bike companies are making a ridiculous amount of profit? The way you are talking, you make it sound like Pinarello's margin on a Prince is 99.9%. I assure you, it is not.

Most Car Manufacturers are actually about to go bust, heh. But in normal times - there are hundreds of millions of car users worldwide. Their market is vast and diverse. There is the same amount of material in a Mclaren f1 than a ford Focus. Why does it cost more???

Its pretty obvious and I'm not going to explain it to you.

Why does a Pinarello Prince cost more? Have any of you tried to design and make a frame which you expect only to sell 5000 units max worldwide? Race Proven, top technology, top design, exceptional graphic design etcetcetc. The total cost of each Bike is massive, their Margin is reasonable and Pinarello make a reasonable and fair amount of profit for a small bike manufacturer.

It has Zipp Wheels? How many Zipp wheels are sold each year? But what about the design costs, wind tunnel costs, safety tests, manufacturing costs, material costs, marketing costs, mold costs... etcetc. Is Zipp the most profitable company in the Cycle industry... No. They make a reasonable amount of profit from a low volume, high quality, race proven, scientifically tested product. You don't get that from a Aksium.

The Bicycle world is innovative and technology moves fast. I think you would be hard pressed to find any other industry or sport for which technology has improved so substantially over the past 10 years. This innovation costs money and requires people to buy things at a premium. If it wasn't for people like me buying Carbon bikes in the past, would Dedeccia frames be available now??

Oh, and for all those people lost in the past. I do like my Steel MTB's. But no Steel Road bike compares to my 6kg Madone 6.9 pro in a 58cm. You cannot ultimately achieve the same ratio of stiffness to weight in any other material, whilst maintaining strenght and compliance where required. Anyone who things otherwise is really lost to nostalgia or misses the point because they cannot afford a $10k Road bike. :D
Ovidius
Junior Member
 
Posts: 42
Joined: 13 Mar 2009 20:09

11 May 2009 19:34

Progress people, and economics. Who still makes in income what they did when bikes were $800? Nobody that's who.

Custom Steel! Now those prices are outrageous! Which frame builder? I'd like to see if it will be under $3K (Frame/fork only by the way).

Don't like electronics you say? Do you still use a distributor in your car as well :p, no you don't, its all electronic including the fuel pump these days unless you drive a retro car.

I'd love to keep it simple using only DC power, Old Electric School :cool:
User avatar ElChingon
Senior Member
 
Posts: 5,919
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 03:19
Location: En el Internet, and Hiding from the UCI

11 May 2009 20:03

only said I like to repair my bike on the road don't like being stranded.
electronics are great technology is fine. I love all the new bikes but they not for me. and a steel frame can be modest in price depending on construction.
whether or not I can afford one is not how I judge what I like. I buy what best suits me and my riding. and that is not always the best and most expensive.
User avatar krebs303
Senior Member
 
Posts: 18,276
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 11:26
Location: Mexico

11 May 2009 20:13

You can buy a full carbon frame for $250! Cheaper than Steel! Check E-bay there's a few vendors selling them. Yes, from China, same place that makes the current cheap Steel frames as well (didn't say custom).
User avatar ElChingon
Senior Member
 
Posts: 5,919
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 03:19
Location: En el Internet, and Hiding from the UCI

11 May 2009 20:15

I'd love to keep it simple using only DC power, Old Electric School

Tesla is turning over in his grave
User avatar krebs303
Senior Member
 
Posts: 18,276
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 11:26
Location: Mexico

11 May 2009 22:26

ElChingon wrote:Progress people, and economics. Who still makes in income what they did when bikes were $800? Nobody that's who.

Custom Steel! Now those prices are outrageous! Which frame builder? I'd like to see if it will be under $3K (Frame/fork only by the way).

Don't like electronics you say? Do you still use a distributor in your car as well :p, no you don't, its all electronic including the fuel pump these days unless you drive a retro car.

I'd love to keep it simple using only DC power, Old Electric School :cool:


Unfortunately, custom steel in the US has become boutique. Full Columbus Spirit tubeset retails for $225/£150. Yet, Sachs/White and the cronies in their fake *** 'look at us, we've been building forever club to justify our sky high prices' that they have just formed will sell you a frame for what? $3,000 minimum? come on, give me a break!

There are quality US frame builders offering steel at reasonable prices - certainly well under $3k ie IF, Ira Ryan ++. In the UK, I'm having a full Spirit f&f brazed for me now at £1,000/$1,500. The builder is happy with his margin and I'm happy with the materials and craftsmanship.

I'm afraid that the bike industry has bought into believing it's own hype. Take a look around guys, the world is changing. Y
LugHugger
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1,310
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 11:51

11 May 2009 23:04

Zinn Cycles tig welded True Temper OX Platinum tubing. $1950 usd for F&F. He would be who I would use as he specializes in big and tall bikes. even makes 220mm length crank arms. But I saw others during the hand made bicycle show for $1200/1500.
User avatar krebs303
Senior Member
 
Posts: 18,276
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 11:26
Location: Mexico

12 May 2009 02:21

[color="DarkOrange"]I will stick to my custom steel "Cherry Bomb" in the Crits and climb on my Kuota KOM. Now need to see the carbon snap like a twig in the first crash.:cool:[/color]
Bworking247
Junior Member
 
Posts: 1
Joined: 12 May 2009 02:15

12 May 2009 02:37

John Cherry makes nice freaking bikes! A friend of mine in Chicago also has a Cherry "Fat Boy". John is like the Steelman of the Midwest, supreme quality, and no advertising, or trade shows, just word of mouth. He sells purely based on reputation and respect. Really nice Bworking, I'm jealous.
User avatar RDV4ROUBAIX
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,697
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 20:16
Location: Denver, Colorado

12 May 2009 04:05

For about ten years, I have lusted after the Corima track frame. They are nearly impossible to find in the US, and with good reason. I called for a quote - mind you, they are custom made carbon and made for sprinting, an absolutely beautiful frameset. Maybe I was naive, but I was thinking in the four thousand dollar range.

The lady who quoted me the price was really nice. She told me it was $9,500 but if I wanted paint, it would be an additional $500. Yes, paint. This was a frameset only.

Maybe it had to do with poor exchange rates, or the fact that the French can't stand Americans (thanks Lance!), but I have a hard time believing that the price of the frame had much relation to the actually cost of construction, unless they fill the tubes with gold...or cocaine.
velodromer
Junior Member
 
Posts: 3
Joined: 12 May 2009 03:53

12 May 2009 04:21

I wonder how T. Bos' million dollar bike rides? Apparantly not as good as gold, but hey, the Dutch love Americans. After all, we smoke up all their weed.
Image
User avatar RDV4ROUBAIX
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,697
Joined: 19 Mar 2009 20:16
Location: Denver, Colorado

12 May 2009 06:48

Frames aside, the prices of components are sky rocketing! I was checkin fizik's website, their top of the range saddle costs around 600 euros! Not to mention carbon wheelsets!!! I doubt that an average cyclist would feel the benefits of such high caliber wheels!
MMMMMMMMM
Junior Member
 
Posts: 19
Joined: 10 Mar 2009 13:14
Location: Lebanon

12 May 2009 07:23

In regards to rising costs, a plug for Sidi. They reduced the retail costs of their products by 15% at the start of 2009 in reaction to the economic crisis.
User avatar elapid
Senior Member
 
Posts: 2,418
Joined: 18 Mar 2009 13:10

12 May 2009 09:09

Its simple, If you dont like the prices people are charging don't buy it.
people will always find an excuse to pay alot of money for what they think is worth it. A friend of mine spent $400 on a carbon fishing rod :eek: all it is is a long thin piece of carbon. But hey he likes fishing so fair play to him. I'm sure my wife can justify spending thousands on Designer clothes when normal clothes do the same job.

I but a brand new Pinarello with the latest Dura ace groupset every year. Do i get the best out of that equipment ?? No . But I dont care. I buy it because I can and because I want too.
User avatar ukpaul
Junior Member
 
Posts: 66
Joined: 09 Apr 2009 19:18
Location: Basrah, Iraq

Next

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: pinarello 1 and 2 guests

Back to top