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Indurain EPO?

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Indurain EPO?

26 Jul 2010 23:33

I suppose I should know this but, with all the talk that EPO appearing on the scene in 1991, 1992 - do people suggest that Miguel Indurian was doping? If so why don't we hear more accusations for him to come clean? How about Merckx, I had no idea that he worked worked with Dr. Ferrari! Does any say the Cannibal doped? Love to hear anyones insights...
TahoeNL
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26 Jul 2010 23:34

Go to the clinic.
User avatar luckyboy
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26 Jul 2010 23:36

luckyboy wrote:Go to the clinic.


And then learn how to utilize the search feature of this forum.:rolleyes:
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Gods don't kill people, people with Gods kill people.
User avatar Hugh Januss
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26 Jul 2010 23:36

without epo indurain would've dominated far more tours imo. the man was naturally physically gifted beyond believe. look up his long capacity in the guiness book of records pls.
User avatar Ryo Hazuki
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27 Jul 2010 00:24

Merckx actually tested positive.

As for Indurain, I think the French Federation said he tested positive for something (salbutamol, maybe?) but nothing came out of it. Other than that, there's not much. His association with Sabino Padilla raises some eyebrows, and considering the epoch he lived in it's hard to think he could possibly be clean. Not that many riders took EPO in 1991 though, I believe it really got out of hand in 1993-1996.

So the answer to the original question is "probably".
User avatar hrotha
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27 Jul 2010 03:41

It is easy to tell that I'm a huge Indurain fan, but I'm not blind either. Yes he was truley gifted and a real gentleman on and off the bike. His positive he had was asmtha related drug and not performance enhancing. There has been some talk about Blood transfusions (but may have been before they were illegal). But the biggest accusation is outlined below in the quote. Indurain denied the accusations and basically said that the tour can be won clean and that no matter what he saysit wont' change people's opinion so this will be the last he says on the matter (can't find quote for this sorry).

I personally don't care if he doped or not. it was the culture back then and his results aren't really why I liked the guy. Even Armstrong couldn't understand why he is seem unfavourably after giving stage win 'gifts' out and Indurain wasn't. I'd suppose it would have something to do with letting everyone know you gave a gift. Indurain use to purposely slow down and let a breakaway rider win if he didn't need the time. They'd come and thank him after. I use to hate how commentators use to always say Indurain doesn't win a stage of the tour other than timetrials. He could have won many.


Thomas Davey a rider who rode with Banesto for 2yrs I think, stated that the Banesto team had organised doping. When asked if he saw Indurain using dope, he said he hadn't but suspected that he was. Here is the quote from cyclingnews http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/oct00/oct28news.shtml
Spanish anger
Spanish newspaper, Marca, published a story today reacting strongly against the accusations/insinuations of former Banesto rider, Thomas Davy, against five-time Tour de France winner, Miguel Indurain. They called it a "personal revenge campaign" after Davy had said that systematic doping was common in the Banesto team in 1995 and 1996 (when he was there), and Miguel Indurain could not be excluded.

"Without proof, no-one may touch Miguel Indurain," said the article. "He undertook a hundred doping controls throughout his career that showed him to be clean." However as has been pointed out previously, there were no reliable EPO tests at that time so the posturing is false, whether Indurain took EPO or not.

Eusebio Unzué categorically denied everything that Davy had said on Thursday during the trial, and said that he was "surprised" by the claims. "Perhaps Davy wanted revenge because we got rid of him for being unprofessional."

Current Festina cyclist, Angel Casero was also a member of Banesto from 1994 to 1997 and he shared the same doctor as Davy (Sabino Padilla). "We knew at all times what the medicines were that entered our body," said Casero, adding that the accusations were just "personal opinion to which it is not necessary to pay more attention."

Similarly, Oscar Freire said that the rumours were just creating controversy. "I only know that Indurain was a great champion and for that reason he won five Tours de France," said Freire.


As far as Indurain coming clean, don't hold your breath, as this was his response to Riis coming clean to doping

After Bjarne Riis' confession that he used EPO during the Tour de France 1996, Miguel Indurain stated that he did not like the declarations of Riis, who was the one to conclude the Spaniards five-year reign. "I don't understand why he made these confessions eleven years after. But he is old enough and he will know better than anybody else why he did it," he said to Marca.

He believes that the confessions of Riis "did not do any favours for cycling. Actually, there are many people who hope that this sport comes out of this bottomless pit, and things like this take from everyone's courage."

Indurain does not want to take away from Riis' 1996 win. "I don't want to detract from what Riis did, but my impression is that he did not overwhelm me, that it was me who lost the Tour. I did all I could to be in front and at the end I did not reach this goal. Riis and many others were stronger, and if there was anything irregular or not then it is not my affair."

Indurain does not want to call Riis "Mister 60 percent" like many others do. "I am not the one who should judge his declarations because only he knows what he did and only he is responsible of what he did."
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27 Jul 2010 03:53

This is the way I see it.

Indurain became a special project of Dr. Conconi after the Tour of Future in '85 or '86--I forget which year. Conconi developed a five year plan to turn him into a TdF winner. He, along with Bugno and Chiappucci, was one of the first beneficiaries of EPO in teh TdF. Because he was a nice and humble guy who, unlike Armstrong, was smart enough not to challenge the press to prove he was doping, no one made a big issue of what he was doing.

The pre-Festina environment was considerably different than the post-Festina environment. Until about 2000, doping bans were only a few months and were often served during the off-season.
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User avatar BroDeal
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27 Jul 2010 05:33

For me this was the start of EPO.. Greg digging deap and suffering like a dog while Indurain just easily follows his wheel. Miguel easily spins away in the last k for the stage win. All the climbers are roadkill. All the tools were there for Indurain starting here.. He could have won easily in 1990. Indurain showed some class though. In the next 5 years he let it fly in the TTs and just marked any threats in the mountains.. His TT advantage was always enough. He could have pulled stunts like Riis did at Hautacam in 96 or what Armstrong did at Sistriere in 99 but he didn't. Indurain was the TT specialist and good enough all arounder to win..He could have played the absurd Superman in the mountains but if he had there would be EPO talk about him now..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM
redtreviso
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27 Jul 2010 05:38

Of course he was clean, I mean there have been a lot of guys his size that could hang with the best climbers and of course then blow them away away on the flats and TT's. :rolleyes:
robow7
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27 Jul 2010 05:45

Miguel knew he would be scum of the earth if he started bolting away and taking 5 min per stage in the mountains..and he was right...Perhaps Miguel knew he could get caught..Riis and Armstrong knew they wouldn't so why not indulge in the ridiculous and then just say "prove it"?
redtreviso
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27 Jul 2010 06:41

TahoeNL wrote:I suppose I should know this but, with all the talk that EPO appearing on the scene in 1991, 1992 - do people suggest that Miguel Indurian was doping? If so why don't we hear more accusations for him to come clean? How about Merckx, I had no idea that he worked worked with Dr. Ferrari! Does any say the Cannibal doped? Love to hear anyones insights...


Do you see Indurain in any advertisements on this website? Do you see him on television or print media selling himself and his image? Any Indurain endorsement deals?

Live by the sword, die by the sword. If you want publicity, you attract scrutiny. The price of fame. It has ever been thus.

As for Merckx and Indurain - you know the answers to that, I'm sure. Anyone who can't add one and one about what happened in pro cycling is beyond my help.
Runitout
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27 Jul 2010 06:51

BroDeal wrote:This is the way I see it.

Indurain became a special project of Dr. Conconi after the Tour of Future in '85 or '86--I forget which year. Conconi developed a five year plan to turn him into a TdF winner. He, along with Bugno and Chiappucci, was one of the first beneficiaries of EPO in teh TdF. Because he was a nice and humble guy who, unlike Armstrong, was smart enough not to challenge the press to prove he was doping, no one made a big issue of what he was doing.

The pre-Festina environment was considerably different than the post-Festina environment. Until about 2000, doping bans were only a few months and were often served during the off-season.


The pre-Festina environment was considerably different than the post-Festina environment I became interested in physiology in the mid-80's, but from what I read at the time, until the mid 90's, I got the impression that the huge majority of physiologists then had a completely different (wrong in fact) understanding of the LIMITATIONS of the human body. Remember that Cyrille Guimard did not want to have his racers switch to EPO in the early 90's and they were swamped by the wave.

In fact, the success of EPO finally opened their eyes, but it took years : the more oxygen you give to the muscle the more energy it can produce. I won't go into details because I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH. Somebody like Andy Coggan could tell us how the thinking evolved.

Anyway it looks to me as if Padilla-Terrados were wise enough, like Ryjkaerts (sorry for the spelling) at Festina, to limit doping to 54% Hct ( ie the "legal" limit in cross-country skiing) while other daredevils went up to 60% in 96 ( how high to Berzin go?).

My interpretation of events is that Indurain refused to take the risk of going up to 60%, which he understood he would have had to do in 97 to beat the likes of Riis. So he quit, good for him.

Anyway, Indurain was/is a nice and humble guy, he knows what he owes to EPO and therefore does not boast about his successes as if they were due to his superior athletic qualities alone, in sharp contrast to L.A.

Of course the heavier racers were the one who benefited the most from EPO as they could increase more the supply of oxygen to their thick muscles.
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27 Jul 2010 07:37

It's late here and I forget the name and don't have the link, but a former teammate testified that Banesto basically had a team-wide doping program in the early 1990s.

It's a shame that he was one of the early riders that jumped on EPO which robbed LeMond (and Mottet and Delion) in the early 1990's, but Indurain was a physical specimen, and I think once LeMond started to fade naturally, Mig was a perfect candidate to take over and would have won a few Tours anyway had they all been clean.

He also benefited from some of the course designs in the early 90's, where there were often 200km of total TT distance in GTs. Compare that to the 50-60 we're seeing these days.

And yes, a total class gentleman. I'd like it if he eventually came clean, but if he never does, so be it.
User avatar Alpe d'Huez
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27 Jul 2010 07:50

TahoeNL wrote:I suppose I should know this but, with all the talk that EPO appearing on the scene in 1991, 1992 - do people suggest that Miguel Indurian was doping? If so why don't we hear more accusations for him to come clean? How about Merckx, I had no idea that he worked worked with Dr. Ferrari! Does any say the Cannibal doped? Love to hear anyones insights...


A couple of years before Miguel Indurain won the tour de france he had been sick. When he recovered he trained smarter than anyone else in the history of the sport - noone else up until then had any idea.

He recruited a team that would ride for him until they dropped (dead if necessary). They were paid 50 million dollars each for their efforts.

After he won his first tour de france it was discovered that he had a lung capacity 10 times greater than any other cyclist in the peloton, his heart was bigger than pharlaps (pharlap was a horse), and it only beat twice an hour while resting. His VO2 max was 250.

His blood lactate levels never rose above 2 mmolL-1 even when sprinting.

He was tested for drugs 5 times a day and twice each night in and out of competition and was never positive except for a couple of times but he had a great excuse.

It has also been claimed he revolutionised riding. But noone has actually said how.

So in answer to your question, I have no idea. He may have been on drugs but he does, in reality, have an exceptional phsiology.

If you want some truth about him it is out there:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6273202.stm
http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Miguel_Indurain
and some further discussion:
http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EE974B1.php
User avatar oncehadhair
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27 Jul 2010 09:40

Lemond seemed certain that Indurain doped. I believe him. But as has been mentioned, it was different times. I'm not sure if Indurain would dope in todays cycling world. I'm sure he would want a cleaner cycling. But hey he and his family are set for life, can't knock him for that. What bewilder's me though is that he seems over joyed that his son has taken up cycling and seems to be fully behind that. Would he want to introduce his son to the world of doping? I doubt it. Look at all past champions sons, ie. Axel Merckx, Nicholas Roche, they don't seem to dope. It's like they've learnt from their fathers not to.

The only problem I have with Indurain is that Armstrong considers him a friend (not sure if he feels the same way) and that he didn't stick on Armstrong's wheel going down that slipperly descent and outsprint him for the Worlds (93 I think). The thought that he could be connected with Armstrong in any way is worst than him being connected with Dr.Conconi. Anyone that knows and truly likes Armstrong is either sick in the head or power hungry like him.
User avatar Indurain
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27 Jul 2010 09:48

Look at all past champions sons, ie. Axel Merckx, Nicholas Roche, they don't seem to dope.

Sorry, I had to laugh about that one... :p

LeMond always said he was 100% against the idea that his sons enter pro cycling. Another point that makes him different from other past champions of his time.
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27 Jul 2010 11:19

oncehadhair wrote:A couple of years before Miguel Indurain won the tour de france he had been sick. When he recovered he trained smarter than anyone else in the history of the sport - noone else up until then had any idea.

He recruited a team that would ride for him until they dropped (dead if necessary). They were paid 50 million dollars each for their efforts.

After he won his first tour de france it was discovered that he had a lung capacity 10 times greater than any other cyclist in the peloton, his heart was bigger than pharlaps (pharlap was a horse), and it only beat twice an hour while resting. His VO2 max was 250.

His blood lactate levels never rose above 2 mmolL-1 even when sprinting.

He was tested for drugs 5 times a day and twice each night in and out of competition and was never positive except for a couple of times but he had a great excuse.

It has also been claimed he revolutionised riding. But noone has actually said how.

So in answer to your question, I have no idea. He may have been on drugs but he does, in reality, have an exceptional phsiology.

If you want some truth about him it is out there:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6273202.stm
http://uk.ask.com/wiki/Miguel_Indurain
and some further discussion:
http://archive.roadbikereview.com/04/0EE974B1.php


at no point did the OP mention a certain American cyclist so why bother making a sarcastic post like that when it adds nothing to the discussion.

I did read on these forums that Mig had to wake up in the night and wander about to keep his blood flowing. EPO makes the blood thicker and caused a few deaths that way. I'm sure someone can provide a link to this.

Think half the peloton was up in the middle of the night during the 90s :D
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27 Jul 2010 11:46

redtreviso wrote:For me this was the start of EPO.. Greg digging deap and suffering like a dog while Indurain just easily follows his wheel. Miguel easily spins away in the last k for the stage win. All the climbers are roadkill. All the tools were there for Indurain starting here.. He could have won easily in 1990. Indurain showed some class though. In the next 5 years he let it fly in the TTs and just marked any threats in the mountains.. His TT advantage was always enough. He could have pulled stunts like Riis did at Hautacam in 96 or what Armstrong did at Sistriere in 99 but he didn't. Indurain was the TT specialist and good enough all arounder to win..He could have played the absurd Superman in the mountains but if he had there would be EPO talk about him now..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAjj5137yKM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhEKRjhLuds

:p

Okay, so Zülle was in front, Riis had been very close in the TT and thus Indurain needed to go all out, so it wasn't gratuitous, but still, it was quite the sight.
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27 Jul 2010 12:40

2010 is the frist year in a long time that the guys who can outclimb everybody and take minutes in the mountains, then lose huge chunks of time to the TT specialists, has happened. This seems to be more realistic of riders abilities, we'll haveColombians back in the peleton soon if this keep up. EPO & transfusions clouded all this for a long time, perhaps the bio passport is starting to scare the hell out of riders now they know it's much harder to pay the UCI to ignore it. Contador losing minutes to Cancellara was pleasing from that point of view, but his mountain riding was still exceptional, I think we saw a much more real Contador this year, a real Indurain may have been similar to his brother, Prudencio I think his name was.
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27 Jul 2010 13:09

SaftyCyclist wrote:2010 is the frist year in a long time that the guys who can outclimb everybody and take minutes in the mountains, then lose huge chunks of time to the TT specialists, has happened. This seems to be more realistic of riders abilities, we'll haveColombians back in the peleton soon if this keep up. EPO & transfusions clouded all this for a long time, perhaps the bio passport is starting to scare the hell out of riders now they know it's much harder to pay the UCI to ignore it. Contador losing minutes to Cancellara was pleasing from that point of view, but his mountain riding was still exceptional, I think we saw a much more real Contador this year, a real Indurain may have been similar to his brother, Prudencio I think his name was.

I don't know about that. This year's TT was not a valid test due to the wind. On the other hand, the pure climbers regularly lost 5-7 minutes to the likes of Indurain. Pantani's TTing abilities were awful until 1998, but he had EPO steaks already in 1995 and most likely before that.

A clean Miguel would not have been similar to Prudencio (he was terrible), but he might have been similar to, say, Cancellara. Or maybe to a clean Ullrich (who by all accounts might have been the most talented rider of recent times). It's impossible to tell.
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