1988 Tour: '' 7 Riders PDM Doped ''

["Jeff"]

While we are at it. Let's go back 25 years ago.

According to a Dutch newspaper The Volkskrant, 7 riders of PDM were using doping in the Tour of 1988.

The newspaper has received notes of their former soigneur/trainer Bertus Fok. Details of those notes will probably follow.

Just a few observations from my part.

The team in 1988;

Steven Rooks; He admitted doping (EPO) already but later in his career.
Adrie van der Poel; He was stripped of several wins because of positive tests.
Andy Bishop; Just Andy.
Marc van Orsouw; A nobody.
Rudy Dhaenens (R.I.P.); He had to quit cycling because of heart failures.
Jörg Müller; He has always been surrounded with doping issues (as rider or any other job in cycling).
Peter Stevenhaagen; Good and intelligent guy
Gert-Jan Theunisse; Needs no further explanation.
Gerrie Knetemann (R.I.P.); Died on the mountainbike on training, just 53 years old.

 

[pmcg76]

While we are at it. Let's go back 25 years ago.

According to a Dutch newspaper The Volkskrant, 7 riders of PDM were using doping in the Tour of 1988.

The newspaper has received notes of their former soigneur/trainer Bertus Fok. Details of those notes will probably follow.

Just a few observations from my part.

The team in 1988;

Steven Rooks; He admitted doping (EPO) already but later in his career.
Adrie van der Poel; He was stripped of several wins because of positive tests.
Andy Bishop; Just Andy.
Marc van Orsouw; A nobody.
Rudy Dhaenens (R.I.P.); He had to quit cycling because of heart failures.
Jörg Müller; He has always been surrounded with doping issues (as rider or any other job in cycling).
Peter Stevenhaagen; Good and intelligent guy
Gert-Jan Theunisse; Needs no further explanation.
Gerrie Knetemann (R.I.P.); Died on the mountainbike on training, just 53 years old.

I too would go for Bishop and Stevenhagen as the clean guys on that team.

 

[Oldman]

Andy, like Paul Willerton, managed to see the world and survive as nice guys from my limited exposure. People closer to him said he stayed clean and still enjoyed riding. Gotta like that if it's still true. Anyone?

 

[Race Radio]

I would take Andy off that list

 

[eric_vv]

According to the news on the radio Knetemann was the only clean dutch rider on the tourteam (no word on the foreign riders). At least he wasn't in the notes.

 

[Franklin]

While we are at it. Let's go back 25 years ago.

According to a Dutch newspaper The Volkskrant, 7 riders of PDM were using doping in the Tour of 1988.

The newspaper has received notes of their former soigneur/trainer Bertus Fok. Details of those notes will probably follow.

Just a few observations from my part.

The team in 1988;

Steven Rooks; He admitted doping (EPO) already but later in his career.
Adrie van der Poel; He was stripped of several wins because of positive tests.
Andy Bishop; Just Andy.
Marc van Orsouw; A nobody.
Rudy Dhaenens (R.I.P.); He had to quit cycling because of heart failures.
Jörg Müller; He has always been surrounded with doping issues (as rider or any other job in cycling).
Peter Stevenhaagen; Good and intelligent guy
Gert-Jan Theunisse; Needs no further explanation.
Gerrie Knetemann (R.I.P.); Died on the mountainbike on training, just 53 years old.

I would like to add that I certainly believe the list is correct, but Rudy died in a car crash. Also, Gerrie's death is hardly unique. Heartfailure happens, especially males over 50.

I'm all for stating facts, but the link here is pretty hard to substantiate. It would be interesting if there are statistics about athletes and heart failure over the years. Did it spike for the epo generation?

 

["Jeff"]

I would like to add that I certainly believe the list is correct, but Rudy died in a car crash. Also, Gerrie's death is hardly unique. Heartfailure happens, especially males over 50.

I'm all for stating facts, but the link here is pretty hard to substantiate. It would be interesting if there are statistics about athletes and heart failure over the years. Did it spike for the epo generation?

I know Dhaenens died in a car crash. I said he had to quit because of heart problems not that he died because of it.

Anyhow, it seems like only Kneteman was clean (was involved in a crash), so that makes 8 riders. Surprising.

They were doing blooddoping already + testosterone (andriol) and cortisone.

The notes and data (scroll down page):
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2698...urele-dopinggebruik-binnen-de-PDM-ploeg.dhtml

Even during the stage to l'Alpe d'Huez both Steven Rooks and G-J Theunisse received testosterone.

Bertus Fok, has confirmed everything but said he didnt dare to hand out EPO (it was a known product already, if I read between the lines).

 

[pmcg76]

Well according to the notes I was wrong about Bishop and Stevenhagen

Looks like all of them were on something.

 

[Gregga]

Dutch cycling was obviously as good for blood doping as the Italians were in the late 80's... The link with the mysterious deaths of dutch riders in 1988-1990 seems clear now, bored of managing blood bags, switching to EPO was a good but dangerous solution.

Another thing : remember who was PDM's leader during the previous TdF ? The probenecid issue in 1988 ? Rooks saying he wouldn't want the yellow jersey if Delgado was DQ ? Quite understandable with 2 "zakje bloed" in his body !

Who was fifth in this ugly 75th tdf ? Eric Boyer ex-DS of Cofidis, fired in 2012, member of Change Cycling Now. Quite easy to understand where his wish for a cleaner cycling comes from...

 

[FitSsikS]

I have mentioned this before:
Rudy's and Dirk's (De Wolf) one - two in Japan in 1990 was a great example of the teams.....supplementation. I remember Dirk saying that 10 hours a day on the bike is what it takes.
However, I had forgotten about Jörg Müller and his crazy victory in 1989's Grand Prix des Ameriques (Montreal). I think I have that on vhs somewhere.
PDM may have been a trail blazer for the team doping we were to see soon thereafter.

 

[FitSsikS]

I would take Andy off that list

....and add Dirk De Wolf. (IMO of course)

Oh...1988...hmm I guess Dirk joined later on.

 

[Franklin]

PDM may have been a trail blazer for the team doping we were to see soon thereafter.

I'd say Reynolds/Banesto and Carrera were the real examples. They were just as dirty and managed to keep the scandals away.

PDM was simply too much scandal. Keep in mind that when PDM folded a lot of the team went to... Festina.

 

[WillemS]

Interesting that it is immediately assumed that the mention of "blood doping" implies the use of erythropoietin (EPO) and considered proof of the introduction of EPO in the (Dutch) pro peleton.

If you examine the source more carefully, it actually shows the opposite:

Dutch

Fok: 'Met epo heb ik me nooit beziggehouden. Dat werd me te gortig.'

Translation:

Fok: I've never worked with EPO. I thought that was over the top/too much/unacceptable.'

(Terrible translation of the Dutch term 'te gortig', can anyone translate that better than me?)

As he was the main 'medical' ('preparation of riders', soigneur'; read doping) guy of PDM and he is very open about it, including showing his notebook with detailed reports on the doping use, I think this shows that PDM did not use EPO during that time.

The book and interview shows that they used various kinds of corticosteroids, blood transfusions, and several other forms of 'preparation', but no EPO, not yet. The things they used, they used often, even during stages.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

I have mentioned this before:
Rudy's and Dirk's (De Wolf) one - two in Japan in 1990 was a great example of the teams.....supplementation. I remember Dirk saying that 10 hours a day on the bike is what it takes.
However, I had forgotten about Jörg Müller and his crazy victory in 1989's Grand Prix des Ameriques (Montreal). I think I have that on vhs somewhere.
PDM may have been a trail blazer for the team doping we were to see soon thereafter.

Oh yeah, the Muller Grand Prix des Ameriques.....saw it it person. Looking back it really seemed unreal.

And the 1-2 PDM in Japan where the best in the world couldn't keep up, although they were screwing the pooch in the last 7 k watching Lemond.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Interesting that it is immediately assumed that the mention of "blood doping" implies the use of erythropoietin (EPO) and considered proof of the introduction of EPO in the (Dutch) pro peleton.

If you examine the source more carefully, it actually shows the opposite:

Dutch

Fok: 'Met epo heb ik me nooit beziggehouden. Dat werd me te gortig.'

Translation:

Fok: I've never worked with EPO. I thought that was over the top/too much/unacceptable.'

(Terrible translation of the Dutch term 'te gortig', can anyone translate that better than me?)

As he was the main 'medical' ('preparation of riders', soigneur'; read doping) guy of PDM and he is very open about it, including showing his notebook with detailed reports on the doping use, I think this shows that PDM did not use EPO during that time.

The book and interview shows that they used various kinds of corticosteroids, blood transfusions, and several other forms of 'preparation', but no EPO, not yet. The things they used, they used often, even during stages.

exactly. if one thing it showed pdm weren't in the forefront of epo and therefore casts another light on breukinks career

 

[Benotti69]

Interesting that it is immediately assumed that the mention of "blood doping" implies the use of erythropoietin (EPO) and considered proof of the introduction of EPO in the (Dutch) pro peleton.

If you examine the source more carefully, it actually shows the opposite:

Dutch

Fok: 'Met epo heb ik me nooit beziggehouden. Dat werd me te gortig.'

Translation:

Fok: I've never worked with EPO. I thought that was over the top/too much/unacceptable.'

(Terrible translation of the Dutch term 'te gortig', can anyone translate that better than me?)

As he was the main 'medical' ('preparation of riders', soigneur'; read doping) guy of PDM and he is very open about it, including showing his notebook with detailed reports on the doping use, I think this shows that PDM did not use EPO during that time.

The book and interview shows that they used various kinds of corticosteroids, blood transfusions, and several other forms of 'preparation', but no EPO, not yet. The things they used, they used often, even during stages.

What do they treat the blood with to make it worth reinfusing? If not epo what?

 

[hrotha]

What do they treat the blood with to make it worth reinfusing? If not epo what?

Just normal blood would be enough to give a boost, but without EPO to estimulate the production of red blood cells afterwards I imagine these must have been homologous transfusions.

Gotta say, this puts Breukink in a very different light for me. If he was doing transfusions for his early performances at the Giro and Tour, the theory of "Breukink as a victim of EPO" loses much of his punch, and his later lacklustre performance at ONCE makes a lot more sense.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

What do they treat the blood with to make it worth reinfusing? If not epo what?

you don't need to enhance the blood. simply take blood after an altitude camp or a period of great form and inject that later. that's what they did in the 80s

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Just normal blood would be enough to give a boost, but without EPO to estimulate the production of red blood cells afterwards I imagine these must have been homologous transfusions.

Gotta say, this puts Breukink in a very different light for me. If he was doing transfusions for his early performances at the Giro and Tour, the theory of "Breukink as a victim of EPO" loses much of his punch, and his later lacklustre performance at ONCE makes a lot more sense.

what? breukink only came to pdm in 1990 and panasonic to me was definitely (quite) clean. and pdm didn't try epo. so it basiclaly tells breukink was a big talent that got shifted to the side when he didn't want to use epo in the 90s

 

[pmcg76]

Just normal blood would be enough to give a boost, but without EPO to estimulate the production of red blood cells afterwards I imagine these must have been homologous transfusions.

Gotta say, this puts Breukink in a very different light for me. If he was doing transfusions for his early performances at the Giro and Tour, the theory of "Breukink as a victim of EPO" loses much of his punch, and his later lacklustre performance at ONCE makes a lot more sense.

Yeah but Breukink was at Panasonic 87-89 not PDM. Perhaps they were giving bags of blood at Panasonic as well.

 

[Franklin]

What do they treat the blood with to make it worth reinfusing? If not epo what?

AFAIK nothing. Neanderthaler blooddoping (aka 70-80's) didn't involve spinning/enriching.

But that said; I see no reason to believe Fok in this area. His ethical limit stops at epo and is okay with blooddoping? Very odd considering blooddoping holds much more risks.

Considering what they did Epo is hardly excessive.

I think Fok is trying to put himself in to good a light. If he didn't give them Epo it's because they didn't have it... or because they didn't believe in it.

 

[hrotha]

Oops

I wouldn't rule out Panasonic being at it too, but I haven't seen anything pointing in that direction yet.

 

[pmcg76]

Oops

I wouldn't rule out Panasonic being at it too, but I haven't seen anything pointing in that direction yet.

Former Panasonic rider Peter Winnen has talked about his doping in the past and never mentioned Blood doping. I guess that doesn't mean it didn't happen. After all when Rooks and Theunisee admitted, they never mentioned blood bags.

It seems that only Rooks and Theunisse were the only two to receive blood bags in 88. I am even surprised at that tbh but then PDM were at the forefront of doping it seems.

 

[andy1234]

What do they treat the blood with to make it worth reinfusing? If not epo what?

Increase in blood volume is reason enough...

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

.......and panasonic to me was definitely (quite) clean.


Yikes...Panasonic was really bad under Post. Take a look at what happened to Eric Vanderaerden only a few years into his career. Full burnout. I also read where Alexi Grewal described the culture there when he signed with them. Sorry to say. Not so clean.