2009 Leadville and Lance's 'Win'

[DirtyWorks]

I completely forgot about Lance's Leadville 100 win over Dave Wiens(sp??) until Steve Tilford mentioned it today. At this point, there's enough doping evidence to reliably certify Dave Weins the winner. It is time for the liar and thief to be expunged from the Leadville record book.

FYI: leadville is not sanctioned by USAC or the UCI. It's too popular. Oh, and the legitimate winner of the 2010 version is JHK.

Please, keep this thread on the 2009 Leadville issue alone. yea or nay and your reasoning.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Well, Well

The organizers of the Mount Washington hill climb has negated doper records.

It's time for the Leadville 100 to negate a couple of prominent dopers results.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011...nd-mt-washington-cleans-up-record-book_177665

 

[bc_hills]

While I'm in absolute sympathy with where you're going with this, I can't see them striking names until some kind of admission of guilt or official sanction. When that happens then strike the names, but until then I'd have to say no let it stand.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

While I'm in absolute sympathy with where you're going with this, I can't see them striking names until some kind of admission of guilt or official sanction. When that happens then strike the names, but until then I'd have to say no let it stand.

Levi has been sanctioned. Strike him.

 

[DirtyWorks]

While I'm in absolute sympathy with where you're going with this, I can't see them striking names until some kind of admission of guilt or official sanction. When that happens then strike the names, but until then I'd have to say no let it stand.

I see where you are exercising an abundance of caution, but in this case I think it's too much caution. How about we make a deal? Wonderboy either gets charged (no plea deal) or does a plea deal and you agree that that's enough to call for Wonderboy's win to vanish.

I'm willing to wait, but I think it's obvious Wiens gets the win he earned.

I'd also argue JHK deserves the win too. Should evidence be released that Levi was doped, no surprise there, would you agree that his win should vanish too?

It's one thing for the UCI/USAC to enable doping, but the cheaters are showing up at non-USAC sanctioned events like Leadville and stealing from some clean riders.

 

[Granville57]

I don't know how I missed this thread the first time around.
I couldn't agree more with bouncing these guys from the record books. This has been a bone of contention with me for some time now. There's been some collateral damage done here that often gets overlooked. In addition to the issues raised by the OP, the very idea of LA showing up with a team of guys designed solely to blow the race open from the get-go, and then going on to stomp the locals was always off-putting to me. Not to mention that, once again, different rules apply to LA. He got his pacers into the race after the deadline for submissions.

Armstrong told VeloNews Thursday that while he did not recruit a team of domestiques or pacers for the race, his sponsor Trek was “sending some fast guys” who could drive the pace in the first half of the race, making it more likely that Armstrong could break the course record.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/08/news/shriver-one-of-treks-fast-guys-at-leadville-says-hell-do-more-than-work-for-armstrong_96666

Besides Armstrong, Brown and defending champ Dave Wiens, other top riders include MonaVie-Cannondale’s Tinker Juarez and cyclocrosser and Fort Lewis College cycling coach Matt Shriver.

Shriver and Brown were late entrants made at Trek’s request, race director Ken Chlouber told VeloNews.

Chlouber said he also allowed in a late entry at Armstrong’s request: Len Zanni, who finished third behind Armstrong and Jay Henry at the Colorado mountain bike championships last week.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/08/news/armstrong-hopes-a-strong-leadville-field-delivers-him-to-a-record-win_96578

Just the thought that these two guys, Lance & Levi, with tarnished pasts, show up to dominate this race is sad to me. It's not like Wiens or many of the others have a chance to jump into the TdF on a whim. I really wish Lance hadn't weaseled-out of facing Floyd in 2007; or that Levi hadn't been injured for 2009; or that Lance hadn't pulled-out of 2010. None of these guys got to face the other at the start line. Each one of them broke a course record though.

Oh, and it's definitely "Wiens."
http://www.topeak-ergon-racing.com/de/en/wiens

 

[Deagol]

Ken Chlouber was one of the biggest "fanboys" ever, practically drooling over Lance. The new owner of the races, not sure about.

 

[bc_hills]

I see where you are exercising an abundance of caution, but in this case I think it's too much caution.

It's really not caution. I'm under no delusions about Armstrong, Levi, et. al., it's just a rule of law thing. In the absence of an admission of guilt or a judgment from some ruling body, I don't see how a name can be struck from the record book, no matter how crappy the whole situation is.

I guess there could be a grassroots rejection of suspected dopers but doesn't that risk resembling a witch hunt? How would the organizers of Leadville decide who was doping and who wasn't?

The organizers of the Mount Washington climb erased the two records based on admissions of guilt (according to the article you reference), not circumstantial evidence. I'm not saying circumstantial evidence isn't enough to strike a name, it's just that it's a lot messier to sort out.

Whenever a pro shows up for a "local" race I'm gonna assume they're doped or have trained with the aid of dope. Pros don't interest me. "masters" neither. and um, pot doesn't count as dope in this context.

Can't believe this thread hasn't been turfed to the clinic for the real madness to begin...

 

[DirtyWorks]

In the absence of an admission of guilt or a judgment from some ruling body, I don't see how a name can be struck from the record book, no matter how crappy the whole situation is.

Admission of guilt would fall under the word caution for me. Caution being the equivalent of a process to find some fact in the matter too. However, in the case of Leadville and other events like it on the growth-end of competitive mountain bike participation, there's no federation. I'm not sure having one would work out so well.

I actually agree with your general idea. My compromise is if the charges drop or a plea deal struck and there are doping-related violations at that stage, then erase the names.

Also, Granville, I actually thought the getting a team to pace the distance was a novel idea. That kind of innovation is sort of baked into the event though. The UCI made it clear none of their Pro license holders are allowed to ride in something like Leadville without heavy penalties in 2011. I agree that the race is more for working athletes. UCI guys and girls have no business in it.

 

[bc_hills]

What about a separate category for Pro riders in these kinds of events? If pros are excluded from the open or amateur category, whatever you want to call it, then people could decide who's win they want to celebrate. Have no prize or mention of the fastest time overall; just leave it unsaid.

 

[bc_hills]

UCI guys and girls have no business in it.

Isn't Dave Wiens a UCI racer?

Should there be a separate category for pro riders?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Isn't Dave Wiens a UCI racer?

Should there be a separate category for pro riders?

Checking USAC's site, Mr. Wiens had a USAC license and raced the Elite/Pro field at various events. (Not a UCI pro license) That's different than guys done with the TdF (UCI Pro license) and showing up to shred the national talent at Leadville.

Instead of a 'pro' category, I'd have a time-split group. There are riders we all know will do a top-100 time. Give them a minute and then let the rest go. That way riders who are fast, but not really into federation racing (there are many) can mix it up in a field where they belong. They have regional qualifying events now. Sorting out a top-100 group is relatively easy now. But, that kind of messes with the egalitarian formula for the event.

So, what about my proposal? Yes? No?

 

[bc_hills]

So, what about my proposal? Yes? No?

I've got no problem with scrubbing records based upon subsequent exposure of drug use. That's basically what you mean isn't it?

 

[slcbiker]

Absent admission of guilt, or some sort of formal activity by a authorities, I don't see how one can vacate results just based based on suspicion, no matter how strong the suspicion is. It opens up a grey area, as there's lots of folks that have some level of rumors directed at them.
As for Pro level roadies entering...Leadville is already a zoo and it's alot of dirt road anyway. Not sure what the issue is. Have a separate category and be done with it.
The times I've entered races, it's geenrally been fun to see how my weekend warrior level compares to the possibly doped up pro level.

 

[DirtyWorks]

2012

I've got no problem with scrubbing records based upon subsequent exposure of drug use. That's basically what you mean isn't it?

The USADA allegations mean Lance's Leadville win goes (rightfully all along) to Dave Wiens.

 

[Deagol]

The USADA allegations mean Lance's Leadville win goes (rightfully all along) to Dave Wiens.

I wonder if your argument would have a better chance of getting heard by the race organizer if it was posted on the Leadville 100 Yahoo group?

We can only hope.
One problem I see with the organizer is that a huge amount of egg might end up on their face.
This is because they produced the "Race Across The Sky" movie that highlighted Lance so favorably and showed the Ken Chlouber fawning all over Lance. It seems like a lot of things these days: the backers of Lance have too much invested in them to back out now. I hope I am wrong.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I wonder if your argument would have a better chance of getting heard by the race organizer if it was posted on the Leadville 100 Yahoo group?

I'm heading over there later.

And now the sanctions are complete. It is time for the Leadville record to be fixed.

 

[BroDeal]

Wiens wins another one. Legend.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It seems the Leadville organizers are pro-doping. Here's the thread from the Yahoo group.

Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:12 am (PDT) . Posted by:
"Edited-by-DW@aol.com" edited-by-DW

I was with Ken Chlouber yesterday and helping Merilee get him packed and on
his way to Asia to climb an 8,000 meter mountain in ****stan. I asked him
about Lance. His answer: "Lance is and will always be our Leadville Trail
100 Mountain Bike Champion". You would expect nothing less from Ken &
Merilee!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid

-----Original message-----
From: DW-anonymized-this @ yahoo.com>
To: LT100Bike@yahoogrou ps.com
Sent: Sat, Aug 25, 2012 03:57:01 GMT+00:00
Subject: [LT100Bike] Lance - does he keep his Leadville win?

Please don't jack my thread with your opinions on his innocence or guilt -
there is plenty of that all over the web.

My question relates to the Leadville 100.

Does Lance keep his 2009 win/trophy/buckle?

p.s. Thank you Lance for coming out to the pre-rider meeting this year, I
will remember it forever.

Some other replies were so overtly pro-doping I now have genuine doubts about the fast weekend warriors.

 

[Boeing]

Nice work as usual D Dubs. BTW where did BC Hills go? Haven t heard from him since Ski season?

 

[BroDeal]

Some other replies were so overtly pro-doping I now have genuine doubts about the fast weekend warriors.

The PB100 has changed. It now filled with bucket lister d-bags of the same sort that have M-Dot tattoos.