2013 Cleanest Peloton Ever

[DirtyWorks]

On a lark I compiled a list of senior people of the WorldTour teams and their possible doping pasts.

Ochowicz is at BMC and USA cycling.
Riis at Saxo-whatever
Igor González de Galdeano Aranzabal Euskatel went head-to-head with Armstrong
Johan Bruyneel recently banished from Team Tandy/Trek
Katusha..... Ekimov.... Holczer.. suspicions abound.
Lampre-Merida Damiani and Mantova doping investigation
Movistar Eusebio Unzué Labiano did Delgado and Indurain
OMPQS Patrick Lefevere EPO veteran, legendary Mapei Podium sweep...
Sky Brailsford ... Hired Lienders, miraculously transformed riders mid-career.
Vacansoliel Hilaire Van der Schueren Long time DS, good epo years, hired Ricco!
Orica: Matt According to this post, Orica's got their own Lienders. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1283120&postcount=130

Lotto Belisol Marc Sergeant <--I don't know about his record. I know he was a good classics pro and did not do great during the EPO years, the end of his career.


#IMHO less suspect
Cannondale Amadio pretended he didn't know his riders were working with Ferrari. Need more on him if possible.
Garmin Vaughters claims his guys are squeaky clean, but doped and was okay with it up to a point.

I'm probably missing some stuff. Please fill it in.

Cleanest peloton ever!

 

[Benotti69]

On a lark I compiled a list of senior people of the WorldTour teams and their possible doping pasts.

Ochowicz is at BMC and USA cycling.
Riis at Saxo-whatever
Igor González de Galdeano Aranzabal Euskatel went head-to-head with Armstrong
Johan Bruyneel recently banished from Team Tandy/Trek
Katusha..... Ekimov.... Holczer.. suspicions abound.
Lampre-Merida Damiani and Mantova doping investigation
Movistar Eusebio Unzué Labiano did Delgado and Indurain
OMPQS Patrick Lefevere EPO veteran, legendary Mapei Podium sweep...
Sky Brailsford ... Hired Lienders, miraculously transformed riders mid-career.
Vacansoliel Hilaire Van der Schueren Long time DS, good epo years, hired Ricco!


Lotto Belisol Marc Sergeant <--I don't know about his record. I know he was a good classics pro and did not do great during the EPO years, the end of his career.


#IMHO less suspect
Matt White admitted at Orica. He's back. Hopefully he's not promoting doping
Amadio at Cannondale pretended he didn't know his riders were working with Ferrari. Need more on him if possible.
Vaughters claims his guys are squeaky clean, but doped and was okay with it up to a point.

I'm probably missing some stuff. Please fill it in.

Cleanest peloton ever!

Sergeant tested positive for an unknown banned substance on the final day of the 1983 Vuelta a Andalucia.Sergeant tested positive for an unknown stimulant after the 1985 Scheldeprijs in which he finished third. He was disqualified, suspended for a month, put on probation for a year and fined BF1,500.

I doubt it is the cleanest ever. Very much doubt it.

 

[the sceptic]

Di Luca
Santa
Serebryakov
Georges
all those GW-blahblah in south america

Im sure im forgetting someone

 

[Taxus4a]

On a lark I compiled a list of senior people of the WorldTour teams and their possible doping pasts.

Ochowicz is at BMC and USA cycling.
Riis at Saxo-whatever
Igor González de Galdeano Aranzabal Euskatel went head-to-head with Armstrong
Johan Bruyneel recently banished from Team Tandy/Trek
Katusha..... Ekimov.... Holczer.. suspicions abound.
Lampre-Merida Damiani and Mantova doping investigation
Movistar Eusebio Unzué Labiano did Delgado and Indurain
OMPQS Patrick Lefevere EPO veteran, legendary Mapei Podium sweep...
Sky Brailsford ... Hired Lienders, miraculously transformed riders mid-career.
Vacansoliel Hilaire Van der Schueren Long time DS, good epo years, hired Ricco!


Lotto Belisol Marc Sergeant <--I don't know about his record. I know he was a good classics pro and did not do great during the EPO years, the end of his career.


#IMHO less suspect
Matt White admitted at Orica. He's back. Hopefully he's not promoting doping
Amadio at Cannondale pretended he didn't know his riders were working with Ferrari. Need more on him if possible.
Garmin Vaughters claims his guys are squeaky clean, but doped and was okay with it up to a point.

I'm probably missing some stuff. Please fill it in.

Cleanest peloton ever!

Well, most of them were on the doping era, it should be better to put them away, I agree with that, but that doesnt mean doping, as well as the doctors, there are eras, no people.

And the only team that have put away all he people in relation with doping in the past, it is the team the sceptics use to talk more, so...


For me yes, it is the cleanest era, maybe more than in the 20s...but still some people dope, and it is necessary always to fight.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I doubt it is the cleanest ever. Very much doubt it.

You missed the irony!!! Repeat after me, "Cleanest peloton ever. The bio-passport works... Cleanest peloton ever...."

 

[King Boonen]

It probably is, there is a changing opinion from younger riders and testing is the best it's been. There is still much more to do but I'd say it's the cleanest.

 

[Taxus4a]

Di Luca
Santa
Serebryakov
Georges
all those GW-blahblah in south america

Im sure im forgetting someone

first four means control now are effective. People used to, that cant change, and Santa that came to a suspicious team

If you mean south america, nothing have changed there, now I heard is possible that UCI try ti change that, but, if is true, is going to be hard and a lot of positives, if they want go ahead seriously.

A cyclist told me about his last race there: a cyclist tried to change my shoes for EPO.

Anyway, even there there are clean riders.

 

[Taxus4a]

You missed the irony!!! Repeat after me, "Cleanest peloton ever. The bio-passport works... Cleanest peloton ever...."

I have never heard that: cycling peloton ever, I always heard the opposite, I was surprised by the tittle of this thread, but it was ironi, the same BS as always.

 

[Benotti69]

You missed the irony!!! Repeat after me, "Cleanest peloton ever. The bio-passport works... Cleanest peloton ever...."

Yes i missed the irony. mea culpa.

 

[The Hitch]

It probably is, there is a changing opinion from younger riders and testing is the best it's been. There is still much more to do but I'd say it's the cleanest.

Testing is by definition always the best its been. And evading anti doping is also always the best it's been.

besides any brief look at previous doping scandals shows that corruption has always been just as big a problem as lack of testing. Is anti corruption the best it's ever been too?

also what's this changing opinion from younger riders?

 

[King Boonen]

Testing is by definition always the best its been. And evading anti doping is also always the best it's been.

besides any brief look at previous doping scandals shows that corruption has always been just as big a problem as lack of testing. Is anti corruption the best it's ever been too?

also what's this changing opinion from younger riders?

By evading anti-doping do you mean missing tests or making sure you won't test positive? If the first then nothing has really changed in that regard. If the latter then this would probably mean reducing the dose, resulting in a cleaner peloton.

Anti-corruption probably is, but that's much harder for us to have any view on. If it isn't the current mess of the UCI and, hopefully, change of leadership will change that.

Young riders seem more willing to speak out against doping. make of it what you will, I'm willing to believe it's a change in attitude towards doping. The one who comes to mind is Marcel Kittel, a few Twitter comments. I think someone else during the tour of turkey too.

 

[The Hitch]

By evading anti-doping do you mean missing tests or making sure you won't test positive? If the first then nothing has really changed in that regard. If the latter then this would probably mean reducing the dose, resulting in a cleaner peloton.

You and others talk about anti doping as if there was only 1 side in this battle. As if the technology methods and products in doping were stagnant, a fixed point, which anti doping year by year moves towards and will eventually reach.

What yall totally overlook is what Hamilton i think it was called the arms race.

The reality is that there is also a doping organization, so to speak, a very well funded one (considering how much money there is in pro sports) which seeks to stay ahead of anti doping, by creating new drugs, methods and technology, and new ways to evade the testers.

So the strenght of anti doping matters now compared to a few years ago, which is what you and others are focusing on, matters very little.

What actually matters is the position of anti doping vs doping.

And neither you nor I know where that relationship stands. Maybe anti doping has closed the gap. Maybe it hasnt. But we dont know so we really cannot jump to conclusions about anti doping being particularly more efficient now. There is no evidence either way.

Young riders seem more willing to speak out against doping.

Pinotti also speaks out against dopers. Hes not very young.

Kittel spoke out against Contador and after the fact against Lance. Thats 1 youngish rider. Hardly representative of the whole generation. Moreover Kittel accused Mustafa Sayer of doping and Mr Sayer has not yet failed a test.

Anyway, the youth always gets branded as the source of a new era. Not just in cycling and doping (though its hardly the first time) but pretty much all walks of life. And usually as in this case with absolutely no basis.
It never really works out, and it contradicts with other assumptions made about young people. For example it is said that older riders are less likely to take risks on descents because they have kids to think about.

Yet here this logic is 180 degrees flipped and now argued that older riders are more likely to take risks with their health by doping. Also people under 25 are less likely to have a strong moral code- what is allegedly behind this change of opinion about doping.

The idea that the sport is cleaner because anti doping is more efficient. That makes sense. I think there is a lot left to argue, and its not so black and white, but i can understand why that might happen.

The idea however that a new generation will have different midsets to a previous one and that this will have a major impact on anti doping is naive and utopianistic. Sounds beatiful but in reality, the nature of athletes under 25 is that if you offered them a means to dope succesfuly, the same % would say now as did 10 years ago.

 

[William H]

I don't think "cleanest peleton ever" is a very high bar to cross, really.

 

[Taxus4a]

The idea however that a new generation will have different midsets to a previous one and that this will have a major impact on anti doping is naive and utopianistic. Sounds beatiful but in reality, the nature of athletes under 25 is that if you offered them a means to dope succesfuly, the same % would say now as did 10 years ago.

This exist, but this is like always,this generation choose no dope becouse there is the option to dont dope, in the past, that option was very narrow.
For most of the riders, if they think they can be pro without doping they prefer that improve his results without doping... now, if you are not good, and you want to be pro, you can take risk and dope, but most of then are caugth.
And that exist becouse cycling has beeb very damaged for doping, less teams, less money for riders, less consideration for people..., it have been a process come together with the biopassport and best controls.

But now there is other culture, for all that reasons, you mention Pinotti, he talked about doping, he talk now as well, but he dont say the same... listen to him.

It is not perfect, some things must changed to keep this in the future.
But always, it is going to be positives, I dont think (who knows, but...) that is possible to eliminate completely... I would be more worried if there is not positives...

 

[Hugh Januss]

This exist, but this is like always,this generation choose no dope becouse there is the option to dont dope, in the past, that option was very narrow.
For most of the riders, if they think they can be pro without doping they prefer that improve his results without doping... now, if you are not good, and you want to be pro, you can take risk and dope, but most of then are caugth.
And that exist becouse cycling has beeb very damaged for doping, less teams, less money for riders, less consideration for people..., it have been a process come together with the biopassport and best controls.

But now there is other culture, for all that reasons, you mention Pinotti, he talked about doping, he talk now as well, but he dont say the same... listen to him.

It is not perfect, some things must changed to keep this in the future.
But always, it is going to be positives, I dont think (who knows, but...) that is possible to eliminate completely... I would be more worried if there is not positives...

OK we get it, you don't think they are doping anymore. You have said this (too)many times before, are we really going to have to hear it in every thread in the clinic 100 times over? You have offered your reasons, which don't amount to much, nothing more than a leap of faith on your part.
With the Blood Passport and the ability to test for more and more products doping has had to change to keep ahead of the anti-doping forces, but it has always done that from the start of the drug test era. Cleaner doesn't mean everyone doping a bit less to keep within the triggers, that is like being a "little bit" pregnant. And I believe that is what we are seeing now, new products which do not have tests yet and more refined use of the old products and techniques. Still doping.

 

[the sceptic]

I don't think "cleanest peleton ever" is a very high bar to cross, really.

1999 was the cleanest peloton ever, everyone stopped doping after the festina bust

then came the EPO test and everyone stopped again, and then the bio passport and then they definitely stopped

JV called the truce in 2008 or whenever that was, but unfortunately he forgot to tell the italians and the spanish, but everyone else stopped for sure

In 2012 everyone stopped again so clean british riders could win

And now in 2013 its so clean that someone that has done reverse EPO can win

 

[King Boonen]

You and others talk about anti doping as if there was only 1 side in this battle. As if the technology methods and products in doping were stagnant, a fixed point, which anti doping year by year moves towards and will eventually reach.

What yall totally overlook is what Hamilton i think it was called the arms race.

I certainly don't think that. I'm a PhD analytical chemist who has done research in pharmaceutical development.

With all due respect to Hamilton, he knows sod all about the pharmaceutical industry. He knows a lot about a tiny, peripherally related area, but expanding that to the industry would be wrong.

The reality is that there is also a doping organization, so to speak, a very well funded one (considering how much money there is in pro sports) which seeks to stay ahead of anti doping, by creating new drugs, methods and technology, and new ways to evade the testers.

So the strenght of anti doping matters now compared to a few years ago, which is what you and others are focusing on, matters very little.

I'm sorry, in terms of creating new drugs I'm calling BS. How much money do you think there is in sport? Because it costs approximately £800M to bring a new drug to market. That's one drug. No drugs are designed for athletes.

in terms of evading the testers there seems to be a couple of choices. Firstly, If you want to set up a lab to determine detectable levels of particular drugs in your system you'll need about £500,000 for instrumentation, for example an Exactive Mass Spectrometer, which I believe was the main instrument used during London 2012. Those ones are now in Ian Wilson and Jeremy Nicholsons lab at Imperial College London. You then need about £200,000 a year to staff the lab and hire experts and about £50,000 to run it. You could farm it out, but ethics requirements will state any athlete involved in testing doping products, and there are some in studies although obviously not top level guys, must not compete, so you'd struggle to find a lab willing to risk it. Enough guys using the same lab can fund it, but they will invariably get found out.

You could go the pharmacokinetics route which is much less expensive but is less accurate so more risky and they already do this anyway.

otherwise you just dope and miss 2 OOC tests then stop, but again, I'm sure they do this anyway.

I'm sure they are coming up with new methods, but short of making sure the levels are undetectable there seems to be little more that they can do that isn't done already such as surfactant on hands, catheterise yourself for urine replacement or using masking agents and hope you get lucky.

EPO was so good because it was endogenous so it was extremely difficult to determine doping levels. Most drugs are not like this, but some are.

take the example of the recent GW compound. There is already a method in place to detect it because these methods are developed in the pre-clinical trial phase using spiked plasma. I know, I've done it for a few studies on already licensed drugs.

What actually matters is the position of anti doping vs doping.

And neither you nor I know where that relationship stands. Maybe anti doping has closed the gap. Maybe it hasnt. But we dont know so we really cannot jump to conclusions about anti doping being particularly more efficient now. There is no evidence either way.

I'm probably in a unique position on this forum in that I have met, professionally, two members of European WADA boards, most notably the one time head of the laboratory standards board. The gap is shortening. There will always be a gap and people will always slip through but new methods are making it much harder to get away with.

Pinotti also speaks out against dopers. Hes not very young.

Kittel spoke out against Contador and after the fact against Lance. Thats 1 youngish rider. Hardly representative of the whole generation. Moreover Kittel accused Mustafa Sayer of doping and Mr Sayer has not yet failed a test.

Anyway, the youth always gets branded as the source of a new era. Not just in cycling and doping (though its hardly the first time) but pretty much all walks of life. And usually as in this case with absolutely no basis.
It never really works out, and it contradicts with other assumptions made about young people. For example it is said that older riders are less likely to take risks on descents because they have kids to think about.

Yet here this logic is 180 degrees flipped and now argued that older riders are more likely to take risks with their health by doping. Also people under 25 are less likely to have a strong moral code- what is allegedly behind this change of opinion about doping.

The idea that the sport is cleaner because anti doping is more efficient. That makes sense. I think there is a lot left to argue, and its not so black and white, but i can understand why that might happen.

The idea however that a new generation will have different midsets to a previous one and that this will have a major impact on anti doping is naive and utopianistic. Sounds beatiful but in reality, the nature of athletes under 25 is that if you offered them a means to dope succesfuly, the same % would say now as did 10 years ago.

It's not just Kittel, but other names have slipped my mind. Can't argue this point though as it's both our opinions without any solid evidence on either side. You say I'm being naive, I say you're unfairly tarring the new generation with the same brush.

the last point though, offering them the means to dope successfully isn't a fair point. If you guarantee it people who may not consider it previously might now, it's a loaded argument.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...Because it costs approximately £800M to bring a new drug to market. That's one drug. No drugs are designed for athletes.

Bzzzzt.... Wrong.. See Victor Conte.. Developing drugs, more or less in a garage, is the basis of the nutritional supplements industry. Reusing drugs is another matter.

WADA is not the problem. The problem is the sports federations hiding the positives. Per my list they are also STILL rewarding dopers.

As a more general comment, the other reason this thread is meaningful for me is the ONLY story told is of the lone athlete doping. That's got to stop at some point.

 

[ElChingon]

Added in BOLD

On a lark I compiled a list of senior people of the WorldTour teams and their possible doping pasts.

Ochowicz is at BMC and USA cycling.
Riis at Saxo-whatever, hired Contador
Igor González de Galdeano Aranzabal Euskatel went head-to-head with Armstrong, rode for ONCE
Johan Bruyneel recently banished from Team Tandy/Trek could be left out as he's not there
Katusha..... Ekimov.... Holczer.. suspicions abound. hired Menchov
Lampre-Merida Damiani and Mantova doping investigation Damiano Cunego
Movistar Eusebio Unzué Labiano did Delgado and Indurain, hired Valverde PUERTO rider
OMPQS Patrick Lefevere EPO veteran, legendary Mapei Podium sweep..., Boonen the snow blower. Rouge doctors.
Sky Brailsford ... Hired Lienders, miraculously transformed riders mid-career.
Vacansoliel Hilaire Van der Schueren Long time DS, good epo years, hired Ricco!


Lotto Belisol Marc Sergeant <--I don't know about his record. I know he was a good classics pro and did not do great during the EPO years, the end of his career.


#IMHO less suspect
Matt White admitted at Orica. He's back. Hopefully he's not promoting doping , Matt White fiasco pre-GreenEDGE, USPS R.D. case
Amadio at Cannondale pretended he didn't know his riders were working with Ferrari. Need more on him if possible. Basso PUERTO rider.
Garmin Vaughters claims his guys are squeaky clean, but doped and was okay with it up to a point. Recruited Contador but was out bid. Matt White fiasco. R.D. rider stronghold. Part of R.D.

I'm probably missing some stuff. Please fill it in.

Cleanest peloton ever!

 

[Taxus4a]

OK we get it, you don't think they are doping anymore. You have said this (too)many times before, are we really going to have to hear it in every thread in the clinic 100 times over? You have offered your reasons, which don't amount to much, nothing more than a leap of faith on your part.
With the Blood Passport and the ability to test for more and more products doping has had to change to keep ahead of the anti-doping forces, but it has always done that from the start of the drug test era. Cleaner doesn't mean everyone doping a bit less to keep within the triggers, that is like being a "little bit" pregnant. And I believe that is what we are seeing now, new products which do not have tests yet and more refined use of the old products and techniques. Still doping.

I could say the same for most of things I read in the clinic, you dont believe the cycling today, so, why you say the same always?

If you put a new thread or a new thing to disccuss, I will give my point, that it always based in the same, to explain that, the same a lot of people here do, just the point is different.

If clinic is just to give everyone his point, why some news are always interpreted in the same way when there are more ways, or some people always repeat the same?

if other people put the other possibility, maybe I dont say anything, or just support that, it depends, but if a new has a differente point of view, and nobody write it, and people give his point as the only possible, I will write.

You cant ask me dont repeat and dont do the same with the other people.

For instance, there are a lot of threads in the clinic talking about dirty cycling...and suddenly, a neew thread talking ironicaly about the cycling is not clean... is ot not repetitive? If something is repetitive, my answer is going to be repetitive as well...

There was a thread that said innuendo have to stop, and it was closed, maybe was the only different thread in the clinic...

If modrators dont close this one, maybe they are censoring some things here, I dont know, I hope no, I dont like censoreship in the opinions.

 

[Krebs cycle]

You missed the irony!!! Repeat after me, "Cleanest peloton ever. The bio-passport works... Cleanest peloton ever...."

Dear me you guys act like babies sometimes. Just grow the f up and be normal. Nobody who knows anything about pro cycling or anti-doping said these things. Maybe some PR hack at the UCI did, but sif you'd believe anything Pat McQuaid said on the topic though.

Why don't you just explain why nobody in the past 2yrs has been able to match the level of performance that was commonplace from the early 90s up to and including 2009?



edit: Can we not allow this thread to be a discussion surrounding the question "is cycling cleaner now?" and do away with the hysterics?

The operative word being "cleaner" NOT "clean".

I posted a good article once and I'll post it again...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features...vided-key-information-in-lance-armstrong-case

Paul Scott says the following....

Is cycling clean now?

Having spent eight years crunching data and even more time inside the anti-doping circles as a former representative for the UCLA anti-doping laboratory to WADA, Scott is in a unique position to tackle the question that every cycling fan wants to have answered: is the sport clean now?

"The answer is I don't think what we have is anything where you'd have team-sponsored machine running doping.

"I think one would be naive to assume there is still not significant use of performance enhancing drugs in the peloton. I don't think that's unique to cycling."

But Scott thinks that the goal of completely eliminating doping is unrealistic.

"I think the goal is to make sure that the probability of being discovered, should you choose to engage in this sort of activity, is higher, and I think that the goal is to make it as difficult as possible to conduct a doping program."

I happen to know Robin Parisotto personally. He sits on the UCI blood doping panel and has access to all of the biopassport data. I spoke with him recently and told me exactly the same thing as Paul Scott.

DW you are entitled to your opinion, that is fine, but people like Paul Scott and Rob Parisotto are far better informed than you and their opinion is worth more than yours. I'm sure this pains your heart to hear this, but its true.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I am going to buck the trend and say that I believe this year is probably the cleanest in many years simply because of the attention busting Lance has brought. I think that many riders will question whether it is wise in this atmosphere to dope. Certainly there is doping, but I really believe (on a gut level mind you) that it is cleaner this year.

We'll see if a doping scandal during the Tour changes my mind.

 

[Krebs cycle]

Cleaner doesn't mean everyone doping a bit less to keep within the triggers, that is like being a "little bit" pregnant.

Read the article I posted above.

Make a distinction between 'doping', which is analogous to your pregnancy all or none example and can be described by the term "clean", and 'unfair performance advantage', which is not an all or none phenomenon and can be described by the word "cleaner".

The goal of anti-doping cannot be to "make cycling clean" because that will never happen. The goal is to make it as difficult as possible to achieve an unfair performance advantage.

The evidence suggests the latter is occurring. There are many on this forum that seem unwilling to engage in the real discussion though ie: are the performance gains narrowing, by how much and can clean rider achieve the peak performance level of a doper?. It is easier to argue the point that cycling is not 100% "clean" because they know in that case they are right. And that is what this seems to be about for them.... winning an argument on the internet. It's pathetic and you all know the meme.

 

[Krebs cycle]

I am going to buck the trend and say that I believe this year is probably the cleanest in many years simply because of the attention busting Lance has brought. I think that many riders will question whether it is wise in this atmosphere to dope. Certainly there is doping, but I really believe (on a gut level mind you) that it is cleaner this year.

We'll see if a doping scandal during the Tour changes my mind.

haha

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that nobody will go under 40min up Alpe d'Huez this year.

 

[nevada]

Di Luca
Santa
Serebryakov
Georges
all those GW-blahblah in south america

Im sure im forgetting someone

Neil Stephens