2023 Tour de France route rumors

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Landa? The same Landa who lost 4 and a half minutes to Contador over 59km?

Are we saying Evenepoel is not a better TTer than Contador? Contador was an elite TTer, but he hasn't produced the top speeds of Evenepoel. Remco likely would have been 60-90 seconds faster than Contador that day

As for the times, remember, gaps tend to increase greatly in the latter kms of the very long ITTs
Evenepoel is a better TTer than Contador was, but Pogacar and Vingegaard (at least the Tour version) are at least no worse TTers than Contador was. Do you think Evenepoel could put 8min in Contador in 110kms TT?
 
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I vomit a little in my mouth every time I hear the word "proper" being ascribed to a ridiculously long ITT that would almost singlehandedly decide a race.

Yet it seems ridiculous to say that Remco could take more than a couple of minutes (three max) out of Pogacar or Vingegaard.
Honestly if Vingegaard, Pog and Evenepoel show up to any GT routes of the last 15 years I don't see Evenepoel winning back what time he loses in the mountains. 2012 Tour included. But then it's also because of DQS still being a meme team for GTs.
 
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Evenepoel is a better TTer than Contador was, but Pogacar and Vingegaard (at least the Tour version) are at least no worse TTers than Contador was. Do you think Evenepoel could put 8min in Contador in 110kms TT?
Contador was prone to the ocassional bad day, however, in the TT. If Evenepoel went up against peak Contador? No way he'd take 5 minutes over 100km. Maybe 3. But if Alberto were to be a bit off (2012 world TT form for instance), 5 would be possible
 
Honestly if Vingegaard, Pog and Evenepoel show up to any GT routes of the last 15 years I don't see Evenepoel winning back what time he loses in the mountains. 2012 Tour included. But then it's also because of DQS still being a meme team for GTs.
Uh, how much exactly do you believe he would lose in the mountains?

We're talking about the same Evenepoel who wiped the floor with Mas until he got injured in the Vuelta - where Mas than proceded to outclass Pogacar in Emilia, right?
 
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Uh, how much exactly do you believe he would lose in the mountains?

We're talking about the same Evenepoel who wiped the floor with Mas until he got injured in the Vuelta - where Mas than proceded to outclass Pogacar in Emilia, right?
Mas didn't get dropped by Evenepoel in the high mountains. And while I think it's fair to assume Mas was better than in the TdF, I don't know why we'd operate on the assumption Mas was much better than in the Vuelta of last year.

Vingegaard and Pogacar were extraterrestrial this year at the Tour. I think the burden of proof would be very much on Evenepoel.
 
Are we talking about the same Vingegaard that basically gifted the Tour TT away?
He didn't gift the TT to Van Aert, he was already losing a few seconds to him and we have no idea if he would have recovered those in the last climb.

Anyway, in a route similar to 2012, I think Evenepoel would gain 2/2:30minutes on Vingegård (around the same on Pogačar) which could have been enough for him to win since the mountain stages were easier that year when compared to most Tours but we most likely won't get one in 2023 so Evenepoel will not be the major favourite if he goes.
 
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He didn't gift the TT to Van Aert, he was already losing a few seconds to him and we have no idea if he would have recovered those in the last climb.

Anyway, in a route similar to 2012, I think Evenepoel would gain 2/2:30minutes on Vingegård (around the same on Pogačar) which could have been enough for him to win since the mountain stages were easier that year when compared to most Tours but we most likely won't get one in 2023 so Evenepoel will not be the major favourite if he goes.
He did almost crash at some point, that also cost some time.
Around a solid 2min seems like a reasonable prediction.
 
Mas didn't get dropped by Evenepoel in the high mountains. And while I think it's fair to assume Mas was better than in the TdF, I don't know why we'd operate on the assumption Mas was much better than in the Vuelta of last year.

Vingegaard and Pogacar were extraterrestrial this year at the Tour. I think the burden of proof would be very much on Evenepoel.
Given that the high mountains coincided with right after Remco's crash, I don't give much for that fact.

Mas' performance in Emilia is what makes me think he was better than last year. He proved to be a stronger cyclist than Pogacar ;)
 
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Uh, how much exactly do you believe he would lose in the mountains?

We're talking about the same Evenepoel who wiped the floor with Mas until he got injured in the Vuelta - where Mas than proceded to outclass Pogacar in Emilia, right?
Pogi lost nearly 4 minutes to Vingegaard in the mountains of this year's Tour, but Evenepoel getting a lead of one minute (or however much you assume he would gain in a single long ITT) would single-handedly decide the race?
 
you're telling me that the same Contador who lost nearly 3 minutes in the 2012 worlds wouldn't lose 5 on that form over 100km?

You're the one who is a lunatic at that point. Or you cannot read my post where I said an off form contador would lose 5
It's lunacy to cherry pick one riders career best ITT while picking one that decidely wasn't of another rider.
 
It's lunacy to cherry pick one riders career best ITT while picking one that decidely wasn't of another rider.
That 2012 worlds TT wasn't his worst, and he had several others similar to that

2007 Dauphine, 2010 Dauphine, 2013 TDF (first), 2016 Vuelta. Not to mention, the disaster that was 2010 TDF.

He also had many tremendous performances. Showed Contador had a little inconsistency in his TT form.

ON his 2015 form, Contador still easily would have won the giro. Remco would have been dropped big time in the mountains by that version of Contador
 
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Pogi lost nearly 4 minutes to Vingegaard in the mountains of this year's Tour, but Evenepoel getting a lead of one minute (or however much you assume he would gain in a single long ITT) would single-handedly decide the race?
Perhaps the opinion that it would singlehandedly decide the race was not adjusted to the Pogacar-Vingegaard-Evenepoel situation but an aged Froome-Quintana thing.

I still don't want the long ITTs, though.
 
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Perhaps the opinion that it would singlehandedly decide the race was not adjusted to the Pogacar-Vingegaard-Evenepoel situation but an aged Froome-Quintana thing.

I still don't want the long ITTs, though.
But even back then, in a hypothetical where everyone targeted the Tour in their best form and suffered no accidents, would you expect the stage 20 ITT in 2014 to single-handedly decide the race between the big four?

I wouldn't, as whoever of them showed themself to be the strongest uphill would likely also TT quite well. Maybe it would result in Quintana losing the Tour in the last relevant stage, but would that ruin the race? No. I certainly wouldn't have the expectation beforehand that Froome would inevitably claw back any deficit in the ITT and that the race thus was decided before it started.
 
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That 2012 worlds TT wasn't his worst, and he had several others similar to that

2007 Dauphine, 2010 Dauphine, 2013 TDF (first), 2016 Vuelta. Not to mention, the disaster that was 2010 TDF.

He also had many tremendous performances. Showed Contador had a little inconsistency in his TT form.

ON his 2015 form, Contador still easily would have won the giro. Remco would have been dropped big time in the mountains by that version of Contador
If remco would have been dropped big times in the mountains by that best version of contador in 2015, then he would lose more to vingegaard and pogacar in the mountains. Vingegaard and pogacar did better numbers than contador in 2015.

Besides that, no, remco wouldn't gain 5 or 8 minutes on pogacar and vingegaard in a ITT of 100 km. He wouldn't gain no more than 1min30/2 min.
 
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I vomit a little in my mouth every time I hear the word "proper" being ascribed to a ridiculously long ITT that would almost singlehandedly decide a race.

Yet it seems ridiculous to say that Remco could take more than a couple of minutes (three max) out of Pogacar or Vingegaard.
What's a ridiculously long ITT? Because i think sub 25km TT's have no place in a GT unless it's MTT. Just like a 100km stage has no place in a GT unless it's filled with HC climbs. So if people want to use the word "proper" for that, then i think that's fair, given the recent bullcrap TT's we've been seeing the past few years.

As for the insane Pog/Vinge/Rev debate, why is everyone acting as if every TT is the same? Results could differ greatly depending on length, parcours, etc. Evenepoel finished 7 seconds behind Küng at the WCC, but he mopped the floor with him in Algarve putting him back a cool minute. Pogacar was dominant in 2 TDF TT's but is a non-factor outside of the Tour. Vingegaard has never even won a TT and has 4 podiums out of 20 TT's he's done, even though he's always been decent/good. Evenepoel has 24 TT's, won 9 and finished on the podium 18 times. And 4 out of 6 of those where he didn't, were from the first season after his crash. At the olympics he finished way behind guys he has beaten multiple times, yet beat Foss, the new WC TT, by over 2 and a half minutes.

If there would be 100km of TT in a TDF, Evenepoel could take anywhere from 30 seconds to 4 minutes out of his rivals. Depending on route and how the TT's are cut up.
 
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So back to the actual route.......... It seems the Tour will visit at least 4 of the mountain ranges next year.
After the Basque Country we have a foray into the Pyrenees...... probably they'll be relatively light given how early they come in the race.

Then we are guaranteed action in the Massif Central because the Puy de Dome is confirmed. Perhaps they will have a second stage in this range too. Maybe not a decisive stage like on Puy Mary, but maybe a Superbesse finish.

They will surely visit the Alps but I don't think any there is concrete evidence of stage locations or finishes. Any predictions guys??

There is huge speculation about the Vosges next year and all the talk is about a HC finish on Grand Ballon. Is this confirmed or rather speculation.

No doubt there will be a TT or 2 thrown in along the way.
 
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