2023 Tour de France route rumors

[Gigs_98]

Yeah I'm not gonna react to all points. And it's not like I disagree with most of them. In particular I really hope I'm underestimating Croix de Coeur and the dolomites stage. But just my quick thoughts:

- I just really don't like watching TT's all that much and the entire argument of the Giro having a relevant route prior to the Alps is best on them. So I don't think that point is wrong I might just have different taste. (I realize I wrote I like gt's being decided over three weeks and I want to change that to "I want battles over three weeks". The first 12 stages of the 2019 giro were probably more gc relevant than those of the 2015 giro but they were still rubbish) Also the only good hilly stage once again comes right before the longest TT.

- As I wrote, I'm not arguing the Tour mountain stage designs are good. Quite the contrary. I just argue that a) The Giro mountain stages aren't that well designed either and b) looking at stage designs in a vacuum doesn't work.
The Giro designs are good but often in bad orders and super backloaded. The Tour stages aren't well designed but they get the order right.

- I really hate Campo Imperatore

- Yeah the Tour route is super dense around stage 15. But I don't think that's as big of a problem because
a) I'd rather have that in week 2 than in week 3 and
b) I don't think it's as bad since the stages are overally softer than those late in the Giro and in the Tour the one riders have really good stages to play with outside of that.

- You might disagree, but I think you can give the route designers a bit of credit for designing the race around who will likely be there. Or at least thinking it will be Ving vs Pog really makes me more indifferent about little TT'ing. Should that matter in such a discussion? Idk.

Yeah so much about my short answer. But I'll leave it at that.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

The two top competitors X and Y are equally matched in Z so we don‘t need Z is only ever brought up in cycling. Hey, these two tennis players are equal in their serves so let‘s introduce a serve machine; the top two biathletes are both great shooters so let‘s make it Nordic skiing just doesn‘t seem sensible because it‘s part of the sport just like TTs in Grand Tours.

 

[Gigs_98]

The two top competitors X and Y are equally matched in Z so we don‘t need Z is only ever brought up in cycling. Hey, these two tennis players are equal in their serves so let‘s introduce a serve machine; the top two biathletes are both great shooters so let‘s make it Nordic skiing just doesn‘t seem sensible because it‘s part of the sport just like TTs in Grand Tours.

But then what even are our route ratings. Criticism based on objective criteria of how a route should look like? A measure of how much more excited we are because of the route?
Dependent on what one thinks the TT argument is justified.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah I'm not gonna react to all points. And it's not like I disagree with most of them. In particular I really hope I'm underestimating Croix de Coeur and the dolomites stage. But just my quick thoughts:

- I just really don't like watching TT's all that much and the entire argument of the Giro having a relevant route prior to the Alps is best on them. So I don't think that point is wrong I might just have different taste. (I realize I wrote I like gt's being decided over three weeks and I want to change that to "I want battles over three weeks". The first 12 stages of the 2019 giro were probably more gc relevant than those of the 2015 giro but they were still rubbish) Also the only good hilly stage once again comes right before the longest TT.

- As I wrote, I'm not arguing the Tour mountain stage designs are good. Quite the contrary. I just argue that a) The Giro mountain stages aren't that well designed either and b) looking at stage designs in a vacuum doesn't work.
The Giro designs are good but often in bad orders and super backloaded. The Tour stages aren't well designed but they get the order right.

- I really hate Campo Imperatore

- Yeah the Tour route is super dense around stage 15. But I don't think that's as big of a problem because
a) I'd rather have that in week 2 than in week 3 and
b) I don't think it's as bad since the stages are overally softer than those late in the Giro and in the Tour the one riders have really good stages to play with outside of that.

- You might disagree, but I think you can give the route designers a bit of credit for designing the race around who will likely be there. Or at least thinking it will be Ving vs Pog really makes me more indifferent about little TT'ing. Should that matter in such a discussion? Idk.

Yeah so much about my short answer. But I'll leave it at that.

The Tour doesn't even get the ordering right though. If you cite Tourmalet, Croix Fry and Ramaz as chances to attack on a penultimate climb, these all come before the TT and before Col de La Loze. Meanwhile Crans Montana is before a transition stage and it's after the 2 flat TTs. There's a flat stages after Bondone, so the only big ordering issue is the final 3 GC states, where I think stage 18 works fine as near unipuerto cause the final combo is hard enough, the Tre Cime stages should work because it's too hard not to, and the Monte Lussari stage shouldn't actually have huge shifts in balances of power cause the best on the day before should win there anyway.

As for the ASO designing a great route for Vingegaard and Pogacar, I completely disagree. The route has no standout stages that suit either. There's no ITT that will force a gap, there's no cross wind or cobbled or Flandrien or even a real Tirreno like murito stage that forces anything outside the mountains. Neither is likely to do much on descents either.

 

[Netserk]

- You might disagree, but I think you can give the route designers a bit of credit for designing the race around who will likely be there. Or at least thinking it will be Ving vs Pog really makes me more indifferent about little TT'ing. Should that matter in such a discussion? Idk.

Well, shouldn't that lead you to praise the Giro more? 55 km of ITTs in the first week both improved and suits the field.

 

[Netserk]

But then what even are our route ratings. Criticism based on objective criteria of how a route should look like? A measure of how much more excited we are because of the route?
Dependent on what one thinks the TT argument is justified.

I think it's the opposite. Exactly because they are somewhat equally matched in ITTs, it would be better to have more of it. The main argument against ITTs is usually that it can decide the GC and lead to defensive racing in the mountains, but that argument is invalid if it doesn't make a difference between the two. On the other hand, it still affects the overall GC and is a great way to force separation between the rest of the contenders early in the race.

 

[OlavEH]

Whats even the verdict on this one? Too lazy to look, but I liked last year's route a lot more I must admit. Not like its bad or anything and it have some very nice elements to it (the start, early Pyrenees, the Vosges) that we havent really seen. By the looks of it though, a few too many flat stages for me and i think 22 km ITT is quite laughable tbh.

Pretty good IMO. Especially the first 12 days. Excellent Grand Depart, interesting with big mountain stages as early as stage 5 and 6 and the return of Puy de Dome on the stage before the first rest day is great.

From stage 13 and onwards they could have been better. I don't understand why they always do Grand Colombier from Culoz, and not the much more interesting Biche-Colombier combo. In addition both the Joux-Plane to Morzine and the Vosges stage could/should have been a bit longer with a couple of extra climbs. Skip the St.Gervais stage and make these two stages 40-50 km longer and do the Biche-Colombier combo on stage 13, it would have been the best Tour route in ages. They are on to something really good with this route, but only partially manage to fulfil the potential given they climbs they are using.

 

[Gigs_98]

I mean again, I agree with many points here. I feel the point I'm not getting across is that I neither love the Tour route nor hate the Giro one. I just think the former is a bit better. You will always be able to come up with criticism of the Tour route I'll agree with and praise for the Giro route I'll agree with. But overall my opinion still stands.

 

[Rob5091]

Tour de France 2023 Stage 21 results

Jonas Vingegaard is the winner of Tour de France 2023, before Tadej Pogačar and Adam Yates. Jordi Meeus is the winner of the final stage.

www.procyclingstats.com

You can see the profiles here.

Thanks for the info, but are these correct? I've seen on other websites that it's a bit of guess work going from the videos at the Tour announcement. There is still nothing on the official website apart from a few climbs. Stage 4 if I remember correctly had problems with potential landslides or some such issue and was not finalized.

 

[Gigs_98]

Thanks for the info, but are these correct? I've seen on other websites that it's a bit of guess work going from the videos at the Tour announcement. There is still nothing on the official website apart from a few climbs. Stage 4 if I remember correctly had problems with potential landslides or some such issue and was not finalized.

There is this official graphic with all the profiles compressed into one picture. Don't know how to call it. But that's a very good referencing point showing all the major climbs and such

 

[Netserk]

All stage profiles, h/t @ammattipyoraily

 

[Valv.Piti]

That looks like a pretty good race!

Also using every different mountain range in France pretty well.

 

[Andy schleck]

The tour will have more offensive and better riders, but the parcours is so much better than the Giro.

 

[Gigs_98]

Looking back, quite outrageous I criticized the Giro route, right?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

All stage profiles, h/t @ammattipyoraily

This is a really great route in my opinion. Could do with another ITT early in the race but other than that great balance and good placement of mountain stages. Good climbs and some nice descent finishes. With riders like Pogacar, Landa, Vinegaard , Bardet it should be a great TDF

 

[Peyroteo94]

First week is just missing a TT of 30 km. Despite that, it is perfect. 10/10

 

[Andy schleck]

First week is just missing a TT of 30 km. Despite that, it is perfect. 10/10

I would be okay with a long TT, but it's not that important. Vingegaard and pogacar are at same level on TTs, so there wouldn't be big differences.

 

[Rob5091]

Boni's near the end of the first two stages - someone wants there to be some attacking.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

It‘s a pretty good route if you ignore the lack of long, hard stages and time trials. I think a Tour winner should be capable of coping with those as well.

 

[KZD]

The lack of a flat TT in the first week and the absence of a proper long mountain stage can't make this a perfect route indeed.

The pace of some stages could also have been better, stage 12 for example has a great profile but before 3 days in the mountains it will probably be irrelevant for GC. If it was in the third week after the TT and stage 17 it would be more likely to see a GC rider trying a long-range attack.

 

[Andy schleck]

The lack of a flat TT in the first week and the absence of a proper long mountain stage can't make this a perfect route indeed.

The pace of some stages could also have been better, stage 12 for example has a great profile but before 3 days in the mountains it will probably be irrelevant for GC. If it was in the third week after the TT and stage 17 it would be more likely to see a GC rider trying a long-range attack.

The GC rider have a great chance to trying a long range attack on stage 6, at tourmalet.

 

[staubsauger]

With no TT all those beautiful stages might result in the same controlled racing that we saw at the Giro d'Italia.

Especially since Jumbo themselves are quite prone to do that.

Unless Vingegaard & Pogacar drop the bomb at the first proper mountain stage. So there are significant gaps already.

But even then the likes of Gaudu, Carapaz & Hindley might watch each other. With the sole exception of Landa. Which then results in Jumbo & UAE still controlling the race.

Hope is that Gaudu & FDJ are strong enough to show some muscles or legs rather like in Paris-Nice.


The Vuelta a Espana really did something very good this year regarding course design. In contrary to the Giro d'Italia & Tour de France. Even though the TT could be ~10 kilometres longer. But I sincerely hope the 2023 Vuelta gets rewarded for it's route design with a nice race.

 

[zlev11]

the route is horrible, way worse than the Giro. hopefully Pogacar has to make up 3 minutes for half of the race again.

 

[yaco]

GC riders could lose time in the first two stages if they come in under-cooked - The route is fine.

 

[houtdffan]

looks like a junior TDF course

Cannot believe Prudhomme keeps Gouvenou employed