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32-tooth disaster

Jul 27, 2009
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I had another crack at a race with a particularly brutal finishing climb on Saturday (the Stratford-Dargo classic, check out the video here).

Having had to walk the final wall last year (even with a 34-28), I did two things - trained very hard, and bought what I thought was the right componentry to allow the Shimano drivetrain on my Giant TCR Advanced to shift a 34-32. I ended up with a Deore LX rear derailleur fitted with 10-speed jockey wheels, a SRAM 12-32 rear cassette, and a brand-new Dura-Ace chain (which they presumably joined at the right length), all to be shifted by Dura-Ace 7800 levers. The LBS fitted up, and thought it would work fine. It seemed to be shifting fine in (low-effort) testing.

13 km into the race, I got up out of the saddle for the first hard effort of the day. I wasn't doing anything silly like using 50-32, nor did I touch wheels. But somehow, the rear derailleur and chain ended up in the wheel, the hangar snapped clean in half. The end result - me flung over the handlebars and on the side of the road, to be picked up by the sag wagon (luckily, damage to me was limited to minor road rash).

The damage can be seen here, though I'm not sure it helps in the diagnosis much.

The undamaged setup can be seen here.

To my knowledge the derailleur hanger had not been damaged previously.

With all the preliminaries out of the way, and note that I'm *not* looking to scapegoat my LBS, who have looked after me well...

Does anybody see any obvious reason why this setup failed so spectacularly, except for the bad karma of mixing 404s with such ridiculously low gearing?

Has anybody got a similar setup to work, and if so were there any tricks to the process?

And failing that, for next year I'm still likely to want some tractor gearing for that final push (yes, I *have* HTFU already). Can a TCR with the press-fit bottom bracket even be fitted with a triple? Are there any problems (aside from the general suckiness of SRAM) with running SRAM derailleurs and an Ultegra crank. Would it be best to change the front rings, for instance?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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All I can think of Robert the top jockey wheel has contacted the 32, jamming the chain.
The flaw with that logic is it should have happened earlier, so I probably am a mile out.
I guess you should have tested a few efforts up Yarra Street, might only be 100mt, but it is the full 18% that you were attempting.
No issues with SRAM dérailleurs on Shimano cranks, or visa-versa, as long as the leavers match the group you are fine
And no, you don't need to HTFU, because I have seen A-graders on the same gearing tack left and right up that final kick, what you need to do is realise the insanity and do the Northern Crits on the same day LOL

BTW your "before" link didn't work
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Both links worked for me.

Is it possible from LBS setup to race start that the rear derailure was tweeked to be too close to the spokes? Do you remember which gear you were in when it happened? Is it possible that during that process of you standing on the peddles and climbing that the extra weight on the rear wheel might of caused the spokes to bow out more than usual but not to failure, and touching the derailure? A chain link that kinked and locked things up? If you still have the chain rolling it will show such a kinky link, or tight link.

All I can add is you should of done a test run on a steep hill where you applied similar forces to the peddles, aka drive train. Well a test for sure for next time I hope. Seems odd none the less.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Notso Swift said:
All I can think of Robert the top jockey wheel has contacted the 32, jamming the chain.

Well under the race/climb pressure, force it might of done something different than the setup test/config.
 
Jul 27, 2009
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ElChingon said:
Both links worked for me.

Is it possible from LBS setup to race start that the rear derailure was tweeked to be too close to the spokes? Do you remember which gear you were in when it happened? Is it possible that during that process of you standing on the peddles and climbing that the extra weight on the rear wheel might of caused the spokes to bow out more than usual but not to failure, and touching the derailure? A chain link that kinked and locked things up? If you still have the chain rolling it will show such a kinky link, or tight link.

All I can add is you should of done a test run on a steep hill where you applied similar forces to the peddles, aka drive train. Well a test for sure for next time I hope. Seems odd none the less.

Cheers, thanks for the suggestions.

I didn't touch the RD between picking it up from the shop and racing - I went for a spin and it seemed to be adjusted perfectly, so I left it alone.

I thought I'd popped it on to the small ring and one of the middle gears when it went ping. I'd only just done the change, so it's possible that it jammed up during the change itself I suppose. The spoke flex is one possible contributing factor - I'm not that heavy, however. The chain has ripped itself apart, so I dunno whether a link kinked.

And, yes, next time I will give any funky drivetrain mods a very thorough test before racing on them.
 
404's are also a very flexy wheel laterally. Possible the spokes went into the der and not other way around. I have several customers bangng 404's off the rear brakes. I either rebuild them properly or they just open the brakes more.
 
Sep 30, 2009
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I've had this happen to me before. What were the cogs that you had in the set-up? If your smaller cogs were fairly close ratios, then the last half opened up to allow your use of the 34, you probably had the kockey wheel come into contact with your cogset. The chain only had room to accomodate one tooth, either the cog's or the jockey wheel's. If a tooth from both makes it into the same link the jockey wheel stops rolling momentarily and the derailleur starts to get pulled backwards around the cogset.
 
rgmerk said:
I had another crack at a race with a particularly brutal finishing climb on Saturday (the Stratford-Dargo classic, check out the video here).

Having had to walk the final wall last year (even with a 34-28), I did two things - trained very hard, and bought what I thought was the right componentry to allow the Shimano drivetrain on my Giant TCR Advanced to shift a 34-32. I ended up with a Deore LX rear derailleur fitted with 10-speed jockey wheels, a SRAM 12-32 rear cassette, and a brand-new Dura-Ace chain (which they presumably joined at the right length), all to be shifted by Dura-Ace 7800 levers. The LBS fitted up, and thought it would work fine. It seemed to be shifting fine in (low-effort) testing.

13 km into the race, I got up out of the saddle for the first hard effort of the day. I wasn't doing anything silly like using 50-32, nor did I touch wheels. But somehow, the rear derailleur and chain ended up in the wheel, the hangar snapped clean in half. The end result - me flung over the handlebars and on the side of the road, to be picked up by the sag wagon (luckily, damage to me was limited to minor road rash).

The damage can be seen here, though I'm not sure it helps in the diagnosis much.

The undamaged setup can be seen here.

To my knowledge the derailleur hanger had not been damaged previously.

With all the preliminaries out of the way, and note that I'm *not* looking to scapegoat my LBS, who have looked after me well...

Does anybody see any obvious reason why this setup failed so spectacularly, except for the bad karma of mixing 404s with such ridiculously low gearing?

Has anybody got a similar setup to work, and if so were there any tricks to the process?

And failing that, for next year I'm still likely to want some tractor gearing for that final push (yes, I *have* HTFU already). Can a TCR with the press-fit bottom bracket even be fitted with a triple? Are there any problems (aside from the general suckiness of SRAM) with running SRAM derailleurs and an Ultegra crank. Would it be best to change the front rings, for instance?

Done this very set up many times.

Limit screw not set.

Der hanger bent

Chain too short

Not shimano specific but maybe one of the 3 things above.
 
2 'thoughts' ...

1) shifting while applying heavy pedal force places extra stress on the equipment and increases likelyhood of problems. I am sure it shifted OK on the workstand, and when under light to medium pedal pressure.
When shifting under pressure, the chain is 'thrown' onto (or beyond) the next cog, instead of being gentley 'guided' onto the cog.

2) it looks to me (from the 'before' picture) like the rear derail should be rotated in a clockwise direction to give more clearance between the top jockey pulley and the cogs.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA
 
Jul 27, 2009
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veganrob said:
404's are also a very flexy wheel laterally. Possible the spokes went into the der and not other way around. I have several customers bangng 404's off the rear brakes. I either rebuild them properly or they just open the brakes more.

That's true - though I find the flexing in the front wheel far more noticeable than the back. I have to back off the front brake quite a ways to avoid rub when when out of the saddle. I sometimes wonder whether the carbon layup in my 404s contains a layer of Play-Doh...

As the only thing on the agenda for the next few months is crits, it might actually be a good time to fix the 404s once and for all. Perhaps this should go on the wheelbuilders thread, but when you do a rebuild, do you chuck the hubs away as well? What spokes do you use for the replacement?
 
veganrob said:
404's are also a very flexy wheel laterally. Possible the spokes went into the der and not other way around. I have several customers bangng 404's off the rear brakes. I either rebuild them properly or they just open the brakes more.

I second this. Waaay back in the day of building low spoke count wheels with very light alloy rims this was an issue on the road.

I don't know if the rear mech's still have a set screw to get the top pulley away from the cogs, but that could have been a contributing factor. Waaaaaay back in the early mountain bike days of using 5-6 speed 'touring' parts there were torn rear derailleurs for the same reason. You had to keep the top pulley well off the lowest gear on the rear cogset. I can't imagine a young mechanic/recent rider would know any better.

As long as the bearings look/work well in the hub, I re-use them. Start with fresh spokes.
 
Apr 16, 2009
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I have the same setup on a it works fine but you need to screw the B-adjustment screw all the way in so that the jockey wheel clears the largest cog teeth. Alternatively, the chain may have been cut too short.
 

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