A question for those from the US

[Jarvis]

Over the past 12 to 18 months there have been quite a few standout performances by US riders and teams, yet a lot of people posting on the web - especially those who appear to be from the US - are still revering Armstrong, Landis, Hamilton and Astana.

I'm curious as to why there is such support for people who are in their md to late 30's, people and teams with questionable pasts and little apparent love for the current riders like Vandevelde, DZ and Pate and teams like Garmin and Columbia?

 

[BroDeal]

There are a lot of U.S. "fans" who are not fans of cycling. They are Armstrong worshippers. Many started following cycling and/or riding after 1999, and they are not really interested in anything that is not connected to Armstrong. On English speaking cycling forums we have seen a huge influx of these people who left after Armstrong retired and have now come back, just as naive as ever.

FLandis, Hamilton, and such riders get the attention of these faux fan because they are former Postal riders.

Riders like Vandevelde, the Z-Man, and don't get the attention they should amongst the Armstrong crowd because they are viewed as traitors. The members of the old Paceline forum detested Slipstream because by saying their team was clean they were implicitly accusing Postal of not being clean.

 

[schadenfreude]

There are a lot of U.S. "fans" who are not fans of cycling. They are Armstrong worshippers.

correct.

Many started following cycling and/or riding after 1999, and they are not really interested in anything that is not connected to Armstrong. On English speaking cycling forums we have seen a huge influx of these people who left after Armstrong retired and have now come back, just as naive as ever.

FLandis, Hamilton, and such riders get the attention of these faux fan because they are former Postal riders.

Riders like Vandevelde, the Z-Man, and don't get the attention they should amongst the Armstrong crowd because they are viewed as traitors. The members of the old Paceline forum detested Slipstream because by saying their team was clean they were implicitly accusing Postal of not being clean.

poppycock.

 

[BroDeal]

poppycock.

Did you ever read the Paceline forums? The hatred of Slipstream was palpable.

 

[lookkg386]

I think there seems to be Armstrong fans who may have been drawn to cycling because of him. But I do hope that as they continue to follow this great sport they will look to the other young American's coming through, but while Armstrong is about he IS American cycling - like it or not.

 

[BroDeal]

I think there seems to be Armstrong fans who may have been drawn to cycling because of him. But I do hope that as they continue to follow this great sport they will look to the other young American's coming through, but while Armstrong is about he IS American cycling - like it or not.

I think we have already seen that won't happen. After Armstrong retired, traffic at many cycling forums seem to drop off. Although at the same time many fans gave up on pro cycling because of the doping scandals, so perhaps it is not so clear cut.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Well, just look at the number of Lance/Astana threads here.
Now try and find one on Jonathan Vaughters, or Garmin.
Same for HighRoad/Columbia.

Tyler Farrar and VdV win stages in two major races, this week and......nada.

Vaughters, like LeMond and Andreu only crop up in the inevitable dopping debate. Usually cited by the "haters" and usually ridiculed in response, by the
"Armstrong followers".

Dave Zee? Isn't he the guy who had that funny facial hair, last year?
As for Christian Vandevelde, I'd say half of them think he's dutch.

As you say, Jarvis. These guys left Postal, with unblemished records. Hamilton and Landis left and got stained. Yet who gets the support?

 

[lookkg386]

I think we have already seen that won't happen. After Armstrong retired, traffic at many cycling forums seem to drop off. Although at the same time many fans gave up on pro cycling because of the doping scandals, so perhaps it is not so clear cut.

Not sure if "cycling forums traffic" is a good way to judge how fans are coming and going from this sport.

 

[BroDeal]

Not sure if "cycling forums traffic" is a good way to judge how fans are coming and going from this sport.

That might be a fair point, but the OP did ask about support by fans on the web. In the U.S.cycling is an upper middle class sport for the most part. The vast majority of them are online, so you would expect there to be a correlation between forum traffic and fan support.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I wouldn't confuse "attention" with "admiration".

Armstrong, Landis and Hamilton are lightning rods for attention. Partly because of their pasts, and partly because of the controversy surrounding them. That doesn't mean everyone admires them.

Believe me, the hard core cycling fans in the US by and large think Hamilton is a disgrace to the sport, mostly don't like Landis, and while it may seem like Lance is still popular, there are plenty more wishing he'd go away and stay away.

The guy who is probably the best American rider, Levi Leipheimer, seems to be the rider stuck in the middle.

 

[astokes]

Simple answer to the original post. Americans, (not looking to get flamed here, just pointing out a fact) admire winners. But we're hardly alone in this regard...would Mark Cavendish receive heaps of praise if he were consistently finishing 3rd? 4th? Of course he wouldn't.

VdV and Dave Z are fantastic riders. From last years Giro TTT win, all the way through VdV's Tour of Missouri win, I venture that they received the amount of "reverence" due a rider for such accomplishments. Obviously though, a TTT win doesn't single out the individual, and, the Missouri race is hardly a win that's going to secure one legendary status. Perhaps, especially given his recent solo win at Paris Nice, VdV will come to the forefront of these forums as the season continues. As for the rest? Danny Pate is solid, but so are 200 other professionals in the pro ranks. Bradley Wiggins, while also solid, doesn't win races on the road.

I won't touch the Armstrong/Landis angle, as like in politics, people's minds are set and are unlikely to change. Hamilton took a classy win at US Pro nationals last year, so obviously, the guys gonna get some press. Do US fans "revere" these guys? Some do, some don't. The same goes for fans all over the world. It's not about "pro" this or "anti" that, it's about recognizing a good performance, ie winning.

I'm from the US, but since Lemond retired, NONE of my favorite riders have been American. I just enjoy the show, and admire a classy win, whomever it may be. That being said, I'll allow for a touch of national pride to slip out for a second...I would love to see Hincapie score next month, as I can't imagine a more deserving winner of Flanders or Roubaix after so many years of close calls and bad luck.

 

[Johnson]

The guy who is probably the best American rider, Levi Leipheimer, seems to be the rider stuck in the middle. [/QUOTE]

What do you mean by stuck in the middle?? Do you need to be reminded of the little elf man having his national championship taken away for a positive drug test.

 

[Anonymous]

What do you mean by stuck in the middle?? Do you need to be reminded of the little elf man having his national championship taken away for a positive drug test.

His wife is pretty hot though,you gotta give him that. Elfin magic I guess?

 

[Angliru]

I tend to root for the riders whose riding style appeals to me regardless of whether they're American or not doesn't matter to me. I'm quite partial to the climbers and to Spanish speaking riders, probably as a result of my early admiration for riders like Federico Bahamontes, Lucho Herera, Luis Olcana, Pedro Delgado, and Miguel Indurain. At the same time Gilberto Simoni is a big current favorite. I've grown to appreciate Leipheimer over the past year or so but I wouldn't call myself a fan of his. There are so few American riders and even fewer that actually fall under the requirements for me to want to follow and/or root for them.

I am a fan of George Hincapie though. He seems from appearances to be such a nice guy, there's seldom any drama surrounding him and he's close to being a tragic figure stricken by bad luck in the events that he covets most.
He's the ultimate professional and team player giving his all for his teammates.
I can't forget one race where he pulled the peloton along riding tempo for his captain at the time (can't remember who) all while suffering with a broken wrist that occured on a previous stage. Just quite the likable sort.

I too wish that he gets that big win in either Tour of Flanders, Paris Roubaix or both!

 

[schadenfreude]

Did you ever read the Paceline forums? The hatred of Slipstream was palpable.

what did you expect?

thepaceline was an armstrong/usps/disco kool aid fountain, frequented by dilettantes.

 

[Ziptie]

Hamilton? Revered? Really? I must have missed that meeting.

 

[titan_90]

As an American I can say that there is a lot of people who got into cycling here because of Lance Armstrong. IMHO a lot of these people are Armstrong fans first and cycling fans second. They know nothing of the sport other than Armstrong and don't care about it's rich history. I am not one of them as I was into cycling before he raced and I will continue to ride and follow this sport after he retires for a second time and I never was a fan of his.

I am not a fan of any current American rider. That doesn't mean I don't like to see them do well or respect their accomplishments. Like astokes I would also like to see Hincapie get that big classics win because he is such a nice guy and works so hard for his team. And I was impressed with VdV ride last year at the TdF. Cycling is an international sport and I think it is BS when people think you have to be a fan of riders from your country, I like rides for their style and talent and not for where they are born.

 

[nightfend]

There are young U.S. riders that are popular over here. Taylor Phinney is one example. But many novice bike fans here are pretty harsh and demand pretty much perfection before they worship a rider. If the rider gets anything but 1st place on a regular basis, they don't pay much attention to them.

Lance transcends cycling in the U.S. He's the only cyclist I know that is popular in pop culture here. He hangs out with movie stars, is in TV commericials, etc. And, because of this, is well know to the general populous who know nothing else about bike racing.

 

[md2020]

I think at least some of the interest in Hamilton and Landis is the allure of the "comeback" story. That's what drew the huge amount of attention to Lance in the beginning and it's also what gave Lemond a large part of his popularity.

Also, let's face it, the US has really only had a handful of really successful international riders and Hamilton and Landis were two of them before their fall. People are interested to see if they can rise to the same level again. Haven't Europeans acted the same toward Millar and Viranque.

As for the seeming disinterest in Slipstream and Columbia, it seems strange and I can't really explain it. Both of those teams have proven that they belong in the peleton and I love the fact that there are two great American teams doing their thing and getting results. Perhaps the disinterest is just the stark reality that most Americans just don't give a damn about cycling as a sport and are just interested in the stories.

 

[astokes]

So, there you have it. Angliru and Titan_90 have reinforced, for me anyway, that this is a global sport, and one need not continued to try and highlight petty national favoritism. Thanks guys, what a breath of fresh air.

For the record, and complete transparency, my favs are:

Petacchi and McEwan for the sprints.
Ballan and Boonen for the classics.
Valverde and Cunego as all-arounders.

That's 3 Italians, and 1 each from Belgium, Spain, and Australia. Pretty diverse, yeah?

I stay away from picking Grand Tour favorites, and simply enjoy whoever can light it up and provide a spectacle. In a perfect world, Simoni will add one more Giro podium to his resume. Just admire the guys grit and determination, year after year.

 

[180mmCrank]

I had always been a fan of cycling both riding and watching. I remember watching village circuit races on holiday in France back in the 70’s and was in Nottingham when the Kelloggs city centre crits were in full swing in the 80’s – seeing riders like Phil Anderson was a thrill for a kid like me.

But it was while on a cycle touring holiday in France that I had one of my most memorable moments. We ended up in Limoges at the same time as the Tour was coming to town. We stood on the side of the road near the finish listening to the booming, excitable French commentary. As it got more excited we pushed our way to the front in time to see the winner pointing to the sky with arms aloft. We learnt later in tribute to a team mate who had died in a crash a couple of days prior. Yes you guessed it was 1995 and we were watching a then unknown Lance Armstrong win his first TDF stage (Bruyneel was 9th!). Funny as exciting as this was it was the ITT the next day at Lac de Vassiviere that really sealed the experience for me. We stood at the start at and could virtually touch Indurain, Zulle, Jalabert…it was magical. But as I have said before I am an old romantic!

Lance is a phenomenon and for right or for wrong having recovered from cancer and gone on to win the biggest cycling race in the world seven times that will happen! It's interesting to note that if you Google ‘Armstrong’ then Louis and Neil still pop up before you know who.

There is and always will be room enough in the sport of cycling for all enthusiasts. The more longstanding among us need to continue to exercise a little patience with folks that come and go from the sport. We like to think of it as our sport but really it belongs to everyone and so it should.

 

[Angliru]

I think I'm getting misty here! Seriously that was quite eloquent and beautiful. Well said!

 

[Angliru]

So, there you have it. Angliru and Titan_90 have reinforced, for me anyway, that this is a global sport, and one need not continued to try and highlight petty national favoritism. Thanks guys, what a breath of fresh air.

In a perfect world, Simoni will add one more Giro podium to his resume. Just admire the guys grit and determination, year after year.

No problem. I know that we are not the only Yanks who feel this way.

I'm in full agreement, if Simoni were to make the podium of the Giro this year my year would already be complete. Love Gibo!

 

[Jarvis]

The guy who is probably the best American rider, Levi Leipheimer, seems to be the rider stuck in the middle

I wouldn't call "Bottle" the best American cyclist, I'd say other than Armstrong, VDV is next in line. "Bottle" is just a water-carrier now. Didn't know he'd had a positive though.

So, there you have it. Angliru and Titan_90 have reinforced, for me anyway, that this is a global sport, and one need not continued to try and highlight petty national favoritism. Thanks guys, what a breath of fresh air

Not sure if that was directed at me, but I'll take it anyway. This was never intended as a thread about nationalism, just a genuine observation and I got the answer in post 2-4. I used to be fans of riders from other countries, but they proved to mostly be cheaters. Check the 'favourites' thread and you'll see that I am a fan of riders from other nations. I forgot a name on that thread though: Greg Lemond.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, Levi may or may not be the best US rider. I'm personally disappointed that he seems to have given up the rest of the season to help Lance, when he looked extremely strong in the TOC in his win.

What I meant by stuck in the middle is that he has been around a while and is a hard worker, having won several races, and performed well at others, and yet he frequently gets forgotten. People remember Hamilton it seems more often than Levi.

As to Levi's "positive" it was when he was a junior. He was briefly suspended, then the suspension was overturned when he produced proof that the substance he tested positive for was in an allergy medication prescribed for him, and he was unaware that the prescription contained anything forbidden, and he should have produced the prescription pre-race. In the end it was more of an exoneration of Levi by the authorities than simply an overturning of the suspension. They believed he had been wrongly suspended in the first place. I believe this happened in 1993. If you'd like to interpret that to mean he's had a doped up career akin to Hamilton, then, well, I can't stop you.

But please at least consider giving Levi some more credit than that. He was one of the first riders to sign and return the UCI's anti-doping charter, long before the rest of his team, and seemed in full support of it. He's also a health nut with a very strict diet, which I'd like to think shows a certain attention to an overall holistic lifestyle, and while he's quiet about most everything, has spoken out against doping and it's problems in cycling in the past.

Is he better today than VV? Lance? I don't know, maybe. He did finish on the podium in Paris two years ago, 34 seconds from winning, and was 2nd in the Vuelta last year, very close there as well. He's also won the Dauphine, and the TOC three times.