This new year I would like to actually train as opposed to just riding. I've tried to read books on training, but they all go over my head. From what I can understand, intervals should be a big part of the training. I have a heart rate monitor and am thinking about whether I need to get a cadence meter. If anyone has any input or can point me to a simplistic way of learning about training it would be much appreciated.
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A simple way to train?
- Thread starter vanillagorilla
- Start date
this year the goal is a timed century in the mountains on NC. I've never even considered races, but would like to try them if I could get in good enough shape not to embarrass myself.
vanillagorilla said:
Just ride your bike as much as you can but build miles as you start getting near the event. Head for the hills .
Two basic options....
Build endurance then add intensity
Develop the ability to ride 4-5 hours and then as you get closer to the event start to incorporate faster rides at your goal pace or in a group with others.
Build intensity then add endurance
May be the better option for the time crunched cyclist. Build up to race intensity with shorter harder efforts and as you get closer to the event aim to build the endurance (plus pacing and nutrition) for the big day.
Build endurance then add intensity
Develop the ability to ride 4-5 hours and then as you get closer to the event start to incorporate faster rides at your goal pace or in a group with others.
Build intensity then add endurance
May be the better option for the time crunched cyclist. Build up to race intensity with shorter harder efforts and as you get closer to the event aim to build the endurance (plus pacing and nutrition) for the big day.
In the winter, do strength-endurance leg exercises in the gym (as in 50+ reps). ou can use a hometrainer to warm up. do this as much as you can.
in the summer, keep doing that but susbstitute two sessions a week for road miles so you have the endurance. if you go training for three hours, but you don't have an appointment for afterwards, try to make it five hours.
do practise races as much as possible.
rest well to avoid overtraining.
I did this last winter and it worked great for me, but training does require a steady life. you can't take a month off, or you can start all over. so your lifestyle should make this posiible. that's what went wrong for me.
in the summer, keep doing that but susbstitute two sessions a week for road miles so you have the endurance. if you go training for three hours, but you don't have an appointment for afterwards, try to make it five hours.
do practise races as much as possible.
rest well to avoid overtraining.
I did this last winter and it worked great for me, but training does require a steady life. you can't take a month off, or you can start all over. so your lifestyle should make this posiible. that's what went wrong for me.
What are strength endurance exercises in the gym meant to achieve when the OP is training for a 100mile ride?
I don't want to defend anything, because it basically does not make much logical sense. It's just a training plan, that worked great for me, independent of distance (from 2 hours to five hours).
I suppose, if you want reasons, it could be that strength-endurance exercises help you turn a hard gear with greater speed. that way you can keep your cadence up uphill, for example, so you won't compromise you efficiency later on. or just push a harder gear, for maximum energy efficiency (which is important in even the most endurance oriented rides).
You can also see the benefits after you have just done a hill. after a hill, your legs usually hurt, right? Well, they still will if you train this way, but you are trained to use your legs when they are already hurting. so you will be able to do the next hill without problems.
for me it really worked mentally mostly. I was so suprised at how strong I had become and what I was suddenly able to do on the bike, it made me really happy. and I suppose that is what training is supposed to do in the end.
a 100 mile ride is not an ultra endurance event. if it was 200 miles, then it would be a bit different.
I suppose, if you want reasons, it could be that strength-endurance exercises help you turn a hard gear with greater speed. that way you can keep your cadence up uphill, for example, so you won't compromise you efficiency later on. or just push a harder gear, for maximum energy efficiency (which is important in even the most endurance oriented rides).
You can also see the benefits after you have just done a hill. after a hill, your legs usually hurt, right? Well, they still will if you train this way, but you are trained to use your legs when they are already hurting. so you will be able to do the next hill without problems.
for me it really worked mentally mostly. I was so suprised at how strong I had become and what I was suddenly able to do on the bike, it made me really happy. and I suppose that is what training is supposed to do in the end.
a 100 mile ride is not an ultra endurance event. if it was 200 miles, then it would be a bit different.
bicycles_rule said:
Actually I think there is little difference from 100 to 200 miles. Both are 100% aerobic events with energy management coming into play.
Not sure how on any level weights will aid this. Read some of the other threads on this forum as to why, at best, weights might help with power in the short to very, very short term (read: 5 second to 20min power... maybe).
Lots of kms will help a lot. Weights, for the OPs goal, not in the slightest.
Disagree
I know I'm setting off another round of training opinions where posts just talk right past each other, so know in advance I'm saying what works for me and that's all.
Lots of Kms never made me faster. Only skinnier.
What works for me is strength training. I spend at most 20 minutes on an exercise bike at the gym to get warmed up and simulate riding steep hills. It's less about aerobics, more about testing leg/back strength and assessing my state of recovery.
After that, it's weight training. 10 very slow reps for each exercise alternating upper/lower. 10 reps doesn't add any bulk for me. My body type is generally skinny anyway. I use a circuit methodology that to add a cardio component to the weight training. I'm huffing and puffing all the way through. I do at least one and sometimes three whole 'laps' of my circuit. I'm in the gym at minimum 30 minutes, max about an hour and a half if my schedule permits.
A radically simplified example would be to do 10 squats with each squat taking 10 seconds. (5 down, 5 up) After the tenth, go immediately to bench press. Making it to the 10th squat should be hard. 10 presses with each press taking 10 seconds (5 down, 5 up). Making it through the 10th press should be hard. Repeat circuit two more times. That third lap, making 10 reps should be really hard.
When I can ride for hours, I'm faster than I've ever been and recover well.
Tapeworm said:
I know I'm setting off another round of training opinions where posts just talk right past each other, so know in advance I'm saying what works for me and that's all.
Lots of Kms never made me faster. Only skinnier.
What works for me is strength training. I spend at most 20 minutes on an exercise bike at the gym to get warmed up and simulate riding steep hills. It's less about aerobics, more about testing leg/back strength and assessing my state of recovery.
After that, it's weight training. 10 very slow reps for each exercise alternating upper/lower. 10 reps doesn't add any bulk for me. My body type is generally skinny anyway. I use a circuit methodology that to add a cardio component to the weight training. I'm huffing and puffing all the way through. I do at least one and sometimes three whole 'laps' of my circuit. I'm in the gym at minimum 30 minutes, max about an hour and a half if my schedule permits.
A radically simplified example would be to do 10 squats with each squat taking 10 seconds. (5 down, 5 up) After the tenth, go immediately to bench press. Making it to the 10th squat should be hard. 10 presses with each press taking 10 seconds (5 down, 5 up). Making it through the 10th press should be hard. Repeat circuit two more times. That third lap, making 10 reps should be really hard.
When I can ride for hours, I'm faster than I've ever been and recover well.
DirtyWorks said:
Hmmmm, Hilly 100 miles of bike riding, yeah nah, being skinny would not help with that.
Not that I advocate easy miles for anyone except RAAM or Ironman competitiors.
I see the problem. Your definition of strength is incorrect. Strength is the maximum amount of weight you can lift for any given exercise. Once you go over 30sec the percent of your maximum force drops significantly to the extent that in a 4000m pursuit riders will compete at 30-50% of their peak power. This peak power on the bike isn't likely to be as high as the force one can generate in the gym so makes anything on the bike > 30sec even less of a strength task.
Seeing 8-15 reps is the optimal range for muscular hypertrophy you must not be training with any real intensity.
Not a very effective way of training. A high cardiovascular load is one part of the equation by performing circuits there are no peripheral benefits in the muscles. All you are doing is providing an inadequate stimulus to a lot of muscles when you should be aiming for a direct stimulus to the muscles you want to prepare for the demands of the event.
This is also the reason why miles alone do not maketh the rider. Even fun rides will be of a stochastic nature so it is better to train within the ranges one would expect in the ride rather than just tick one box (X amount of strength or ability to ride for 5 hours).
oldborn
BANNED
Here we go again in Battle of Somma
Cycling is endurance discipline in which strenght will always play a larger role.
Ok, Dirtyworks did not mention maximum strenght he mention (muscular)strenght which is generally defined as the ability to generate force at a given velocity of movement, or force in a short period of time.
Fergie definition of muscular strenght is actualy from McArdle, Katch, and Katch, 1991, p. 452). which is by me wrong it is more a definition of maximum strenght, but again
If we are speaking of max strenght it should be means of the max resistance which can be overcome in one rep by developing max muscle tension in fibres.
So strenght can be subdivided in Max strenght, explosive, strenght endurance, dynamic, and static.
Cyclist can benefits from developing strenght endurance in dynamic pattern.
Static strenght should be avoid it cos is to unspecific and has negative impact on local muscle endurance.
Weight training should be a supplement to our training not the main body of it, but there is some correlation because of the force-velocity curve.
Where training relative strength as its more important than absolute strength for functional movement and in no way is developing hypertrophy advised throughout any training program for a cyclist.
Improving the ability of nervous system to synchronize the electrical impulses that cause the muscles to contract and act in concert produces greater capacity to generate power than does merely increasing the size of those same muscles, so we have answer of why greater legs are not always stronger.
Of course that works for me and i will not take "Big Bertha" out of garage.
Stay well!
Cycling is endurance discipline in which strenght will always play a larger role.
Ok, Dirtyworks did not mention maximum strenght he mention (muscular)strenght which is generally defined as the ability to generate force at a given velocity of movement, or force in a short period of time.
Fergie definition of muscular strenght is actualy from McArdle, Katch, and Katch, 1991, p. 452). which is by me wrong it is more a definition of maximum strenght, but again
If we are speaking of max strenght it should be means of the max resistance which can be overcome in one rep by developing max muscle tension in fibres.
So strenght can be subdivided in Max strenght, explosive, strenght endurance, dynamic, and static.
Cyclist can benefits from developing strenght endurance in dynamic pattern.
Static strenght should be avoid it cos is to unspecific and has negative impact on local muscle endurance.
Weight training should be a supplement to our training not the main body of it, but there is some correlation because of the force-velocity curve.
Where training relative strength as its more important than absolute strength for functional movement and in no way is developing hypertrophy advised throughout any training program for a cyclist.
Improving the ability of nervous system to synchronize the electrical impulses that cause the muscles to contract and act in concert produces greater capacity to generate power than does merely increasing the size of those same muscles, so we have answer of why greater legs are not always stronger.
Of course that works for me and i will not take "Big Bertha" out of garage.
Stay well!
oldborn said:Here we go again in Battle of Somma
Cycling is endurance discipline in which strenght will always play a larger role.
Anyone with a power meter, quadrant analysis and a calculator can work out that the strength demands of cycling, in particular endurance cycling are minimal.
Strength is maximal force.
Power is force x velocity.
Fergie definition of muscular strenght is actualy from McArdle, Katch, and Katch, 1991, p. 452). which is by me wrong it is more a definition of maximum strenght, but again
That is the agreed definition of strength in exercise physiology and sport science.
Once you go past a 30sec maximal effort you drop below 40-50% of your maximal power so it's not really the strength of the muscle limiting performance but the ability to supply ATP to the working muscle.
On what basis?
Strength relative to what?
Strength is not an issue. I can produce as much power as Cancellara, I am stronger and more powerful than Chris Boardman was in his peak. My problem is I can't sustain that power for the same duration as they can. Getting stronger is not going to benefit you in any way unless your event is less than 3 seconds.
oldborn
BANNED
Fergie you are down there in New Zealand and it is almost 1am here in Croatia, so hear you tomorrow morning.
Until then i will take out nerve gas shell from pile i had once, and start to load my "Big Bertha".
Good night and Stay well!
Until then i will take out nerve gas shell from pile i had once, and start to load my "Big Bertha".
Good night and Stay well!
Let me lay a wee minefield to block the way.
Ronnestad et al's 4 studies are not very effective. The experimental group made far less progress than one would expect from performing interval training. The difference between groups is exaggerated because the control group performing "normal training" actually performed worse. I would run the study again with a control group guided by a decent coach and the difference between groups would be far less.
Now Aldo has sadly passed who will be your new imaginary friend?
Ronnestad et al's 4 studies are not very effective. The experimental group made far less progress than one would expect from performing interval training. The difference between groups is exaggerated because the control group performing "normal training" actually performed worse. I would run the study again with a control group guided by a decent coach and the difference between groups would be far less.
Now Aldo has sadly passed who will be your new imaginary friend?
@Tapeworm 200 reps in the gym is also a largely aerobic exercise. this is what I recommend for legpress (because it worked for me).
@Fergie Since you are extremely strong, you might be better off trying to improve your spinning by doing drills. Since you are a sprinty type (most likely), you will have trouble with too much muscle weight if you do too much strength training. so if you are going to do gymwork at all, you will have to go for lots of repetitions. this will also help you improve your aerobic power.
unless all you want is improve your sprint for very short events (like a 200m). but from what I gather, that is not what you want.
circuits are great, actually. I used one or three rounds, where each round will take me 52 minutes or so (15 minutes spinning on the bike and the rest on the machines). I think you would do yourself a favor if you tried it. lots of cyclists do, not just me or other gym-advocates. I do not know what peripheral effects are, but you will see steady improvements in the weights you can handle and the ammount of reps you can do with them. ow and you'll see improvements in power as a nice side effect.
another advantage of gymwork is that you don't need to clean the bike afterwards so you'll be able to put in more effective training time.
@Fergie Since you are extremely strong, you might be better off trying to improve your spinning by doing drills. Since you are a sprinty type (most likely), you will have trouble with too much muscle weight if you do too much strength training. so if you are going to do gymwork at all, you will have to go for lots of repetitions. this will also help you improve your aerobic power.
unless all you want is improve your sprint for very short events (like a 200m). but from what I gather, that is not what you want.
circuits are great, actually. I used one or three rounds, where each round will take me 52 minutes or so (15 minutes spinning on the bike and the rest on the machines). I think you would do yourself a favor if you tried it. lots of cyclists do, not just me or other gym-advocates. I do not know what peripheral effects are, but you will see steady improvements in the weights you can handle and the ammount of reps you can do with them. ow and you'll see improvements in power as a nice side effect.
another advantage of gymwork is that you don't need to clean the bike afterwards so you'll be able to put in more effective training time.
oldborn
BANNED
Who said anything else? So why really cyclist train specific strenght on bike if this is almost irelevant by your words?CoachFergie said:
No strenght is not a maximal force. What is then max of 1REP, maybe „your“ definition and plus 300 kg.CoachFergie said:
ThanksCoachFergie said:
As i said it sucks, never heard before, those guys should really take a 100% alchohol free beer.CoachFergie said:
Who did mention something about 30sec. max effort and ATP? Can we train our fuel sources in way Cavendish did, yes we can.CoachFergie said:
CoachFergie said:
Mine
Relative to Power-weight ratio.CoachFergie said:
CoachFergie said:
Who can? So train as they did, especialy Spartakus with some 200 kg deadlift. Why you should be a role model anyway?
Again 3 seconds, is it maybe 10 seconds, or 1 minute. What is a 400m running race? ATP or something else?
RIP Aldo
There are lots of books and blogs that have training plans for century rides. NC has lots of areas that are very mountainous and can bake your cake if you go out too hard. LSD(long steady distance) rides are needed to make sure your mechanics are good. Things that don't hurt while out getting a cup of coffee with friends may really blow up at mile 80 in the hills of NC. Keep your body wieght low and eat foods off the bike that you are going to eat on the bike. The calorie type is important and to shock your body while riding will spell a blue phase or even a complete bonk where the pedals won't turn over. You should look for a 12-20 hour program that fits with your life. LSD will work best on weekend where you can get in the saddle for 5+ hours. 2 a days also help..just ride a stationary bike in the early am for 30 or 45 minutes before you do anything else. Its a good way to start. No matter what you have to stay injury free and cyclists are injury magnets because of the lack of range of motion. The pedal stroke is defined by having your hands on the bars and your feet clipped in..not lots of places for your muscle to go..you are in your own little sphere. Important to cross train and do things off the bike that increase all the other areas that are not used in cycling. Cross training will help in everyway and make it so you don't break your leg or pull a nuscle hwile going up the stairs or getting a stroller out of the car. Jump rope,play basketball or soccer.go hiking. Whatever you do don't et a bunch of BBQ..which NC has some of the best of in the world
oldborn said:
Because they don't have a clue about physiology.
There is no "my definition" only the agreed definition in sport science.
They are not the ones who sound like an alcoholic.
Is that the best you have, still going on about a report that Fabian lifted a weight once. Why don't you make Fabian your new imaginary friend and find out what weight training he really does.
It's all ATP, what it isn't is strength for anything past 3 sec, probably less.
oldborn
BANNED
Bruyneel, Friel, FergieCoachFergie said:
Not here in sport college and i am sure in others schools too.CoachFergie said:
By that definition everything we lift is our maximal effort. Force and strenght are not same thing are we can not even measure intesity in same way.
Thanks for clarifying me that.CoachFergie said:
CoachFergie said:
Well you mention Boardman and Spartacus in your post first not me.
CoachFergie said:
No it is not, who told you that we are going to spend ATP in 3 seconds. I am saying in 10 seconds.
400 meters runners are somwhere on border line between pure ATP and Creatine phosphate.
Muscle strenght is close related with maximal explosive force. How much explosive and how much maximal force has influence on strenght are determined by load which must be overcome.
ATP is source of energy used by all muscle cells for force production, and it is availible in small amounts as you know. Must be constantly replenished, and body has three way to create it: Aerobic, Lactic acid and Creatine phosphate energy producing system.
oldborn said:
Bruyneel is a coach. Friel markets himself well but there is not physiological rationale for much of what he suggests.
It is. As we lift more we recruit bigger and more fast twitch muscle fibres.
You show us the proof that a 400m runner can compete just using the ATP and CP energy systems.
You don't say
oldborn
BANNED
Misconsuption in "yours" definition of strenght leading you to wrong conclusion about it.
Well strenght is not everything which last 3 seconds, and strenght is not a maximal effort because it is divided into several categories as i mention before.
Training for cycling strenght is not same thing as lifting deadlift for 2-4 reps which is definition of strenght in gym.
If i just finishing bike portion of triathlon is too difficult to me- lack of endurance.
If i am passed on hills-lack of strenght.
If i am masher- lack of speed skills.
If i am loosing speed on flat near the end- lack of muscular endurance.
If i am getting strugle to get over short hills- lack of power.
For you everything will be lack of endurance and power sustainabilty.
Well strenght is not everything which last 3 seconds, and strenght is not a maximal effort because it is divided into several categories as i mention before.
Training for cycling strenght is not same thing as lifting deadlift for 2-4 reps which is definition of strenght in gym.
If i just finishing bike portion of triathlon is too difficult to me- lack of endurance.
If i am passed on hills-lack of strenght.
If i am masher- lack of speed skills.
If i am loosing speed on flat near the end- lack of muscular endurance.
If i am getting strugle to get over short hills- lack of power.
For you everything will be lack of endurance and power sustainabilty.
oldborn said:
That is the definition from some nobody in Croatia. I will stick with textbook definitions thanks.
Strength is strength.
At 25-40% of your maximal power. That is not strength.
Lack of anaerobic capacity.
Your muscles don't fail, there is always bigger stronger faster motor units lying in wait but use them and you will fatigue faster.
We see this with Wingate 30sec tests. Increase the peak power and the average power drops (aka fatigue index).
Now what other misconceptions can I clear up for you?
oldborn
BANNED
CoachFergie said:
I am sending you a Croatian college books for you convicts, of course paypal only i do not trust you.
Strenght is not a maximal effort.CoachFergie said:
CoachFergie said:
Yes it is! Depends on a hills gradient and speed.
CoachFergie said:
No it is not, it will be if i bike portion is getting shorter and i do worse to others.
CoachFergie said:
Again wrong.
CoachFergie said:
Well thanks none.
Yours best arguments in season 1, episode 2, "Strenght wars" was reminder of me of my rather sarcastic jokes about Aldo, and Fabien, which i quit assuming that you are going to take it to seriously. I am apologized cos of that before 2 years ago, but you still find it very interesting. Well sarcasm is kind of defense mechanism.
oldborn said:
Need to brush up on your history.
Sure in La La land it isn't. Back in the real world it is.
Fatigue is the limit not strength unless you are riding stupid big gears.
Well I find your inability to grasp simple physiological processes very amusing.
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