About morality

Jun 18, 2009
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I red an interview with Andy Schleck after his brother was busted and he said that he swear on his mothers head that Frank never doped. I red again that line and sit for a few minutes and think. I mean, I have to admit, every second I thought that they doped ever since they are in this sport, maybe less in the close past.
Then, Armstrong I think once said that after he was so close to death he would never try some substances that may hurt him. My conscience and L'equipe still tell me he doped.
Tyler Hamilton, he looked such a nice guy in 2003...but we all know the rest of it.
Michael Rogers said in 2006/7 that there are a lot of temptations in this sport but when the night is coming, he likes to be secure with his conscience. We maybe will never know who was in that car to Freiburg.

So are humans (in this case cyclists) so cynical, with such a low morality, and say everything just to convince some strangers (us) that they are clean? Believe me, after that remark, I tend to believe that the Schlecks are clean, regardless that Fuentes payment. I think this is my first thread on clinic so be gentle.

(From time to time, I feel to ask for apologies for my grammar to the english natives, so there you go)
 
Sep 18, 2010
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McLovin said:
So are humans (in this case cyclists) so cynical, with such a low morality, and say everything just to convince some strangers (us) that they are clean?
In the end, words are cheap.

If someone is already doping, lying about doping doesn't add much to their crimes. (And, if they're doping, they've already reconciled themselves with some level of dishonesty.)

I guess many of them (top guys) dope because they believe everyone that's beating them is doping. And, if that's what they believe, then it's not hard to absolve themselves of moral responsibility for doping and the lying that goes with it.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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People lie, we all do. You've got situations where their peoples livelihood is dependent on them doing so - of course they will IMO, their backs are against the wall. In the case of Andy Schleck: is his loyalty to a certain group of cycling fans, or to his close family? I don't think the ethics are even that clear cut. You have fans on the outside possibly with an unrealistic idea of the sport, demanding it be clean in a way it probably never has been, while simoultaneously demanding swashbuckling attacking racing. Having said that I don't have to believe them, and drugs at the top of the sport will force some youngsters to choose between career and conscience. Edit - the other moral issue I personally have with doping is that the sport becomes an arms race - not meritocratic and dangerous for the riders.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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taiwan said:
People lie, we all do. You've got situations where their peoples livelihood is dependent on them doing so - of course they will IMO, their backs are against the wall. In the case of Andy Schleck: is his loyalty to a certain group of cycling fans, or to his close family? I don't think the ethics are even that clear cut. You have fans on the outside possibly with an unrealistic idea of the sport, demanding it be clean in a way it probably never has been, while simoultaneously demanding swashbuckling attacking racing. Having said that I don't have to believe them, and drugs at the top of the sport will force some youngsters to choose between career and conscience.
exactly. According to self-report studies we all lie about 2-10 times a day. Of course we don't all run around telling big fantasy stories to others, mainly it's just making ourselves look a bit better than we are. And that is even healthy! People with depression see themselves and their lives much more realistic than people that don't have a depression.
Anyone lies and cheats from time to time, it's just human nature. And this happens obviously everywhere, not just in sports.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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ok, but you can lie in a more simple way.nobody forced andy, in this case, to mention his mother that brutal way.
 
McLovin said:
ok, but you can lie in a more simple way.nobody forced andy, in this case, to mention his mother that brutal way.
In what language did Andy make his statement? Of course in English words have many different meanings. He could be following the Bill Clinton method of twisting his words around and altering punctuation to change what it really means. Or maybe all he really meant is that he would use profanities on his mother's toilet to reaffirm that Frank didn't dope.
 
Doping doesn't make strict discrimination between nice people and bullies. Of bullies/arrogant priks/etc it's just easier to reconsile for others that they did. I like to think people who are more evilly inclined will turn towards doping themselves quicker.
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Sometimes you might say something just to get an interviewer to drop the subject. I'm sure Andy knows exactly what Frank has been doing, whether it is something or nothing. My opinion of Schleck does not change just because he denies that his brother is doping - it is exactly what I would have expected.
 
Aug 3, 2010
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McLovin said:
So are humans (in this case cyclists) so cynical, with such a low morality, and say everything just to convince some strangers (us) that they are clean? Believe me, after that remark, I tend to believe that the Schlecks are clean, regardless that Fuentes payment. I think this is my first thread on clinic so be gentle.

(From time to time, I feel to ask for apologies for my grammar to the english natives, so there you go)
There is nothing wrong with your English grammar, only your logic:confused:
 
McLovin said:
..So are humans (in this case cyclists) so cynical, with such a low morality, and say everything just to convince some strangers (us) that they are clean?
Some, yes. And they don't lose any sleep over it either. The means justify the ends and the money is great for some of these riders.

In order to keep the game of competitive cycling meaningful, in theory people breaking the rules should not be allowed to violate the rules of the game. In practice, the UCI strategically enforces rules. Allowing such obvious rules violations only limits the marketability of the sport.


Generally speaking, morality is entirely individual. Lots of people can say/do things that break all kinds of rules all the way into criminal rules and not give it a second thought, while others cannot act similarly.
 
May 7, 2009
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Some people not only lie to others, but also to themselves. I believe that it is possible, and even likely, that if you lie to yourself enough about any given situation, a small part of you will actually start to believe your own lies. This may be a psychological defense mechanism against guilt, perhaps?
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Deagol said:
Some people not only lie to others, but also to themselves. I believe that it is possible, and even likely, that if you lie to yourself enough about any given situation, a small part of you will actually start to believe your own lies. This may be a psychological defense mechanism against guilt, perhaps?
This is possible, yes. The brain generates memory traces, and after a certain point you might be unable to distinguish whether a situation really happend this way or whether it was just imagination. "Real" perception and imagination also activate the same brain regions. It is not entirely clear yet how we are able at all to know what is truly perceived and what is just imagination.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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You know why dopers fight so hard after getting popped?

Because they know they cheated. They know they broke the rules. They know they did something abhorrent to the ideal of sport.

It doesn't matter how many team mates they had that dope, it doesn't matter that they think the whole peloton is cranked. They know the rules, and they know that the fans know the rules.

That's not to say they're bad, or inherently evil, or anything of that nature. But, they KNOW they cheated and did something that is going to be vilified by the general public.

They fight the A positive, because that's all they have left. They may continue denying forever, tearfully. Because they know it's wrong.

That's the point. They know it's wrong.

The internal justifications may work for their time in the peloton, but once they're popped they all crumble...
 
Oct 30, 2011
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JMBeaushrimp said:
You know why dopers fight so hard after getting popped?

Because they know they cheated. They know they broke the rules. They know they did something abhorrent to the ideal of sport.

It doesn't matter how many team mates they had that dope, it doesn't matter that they think the whole peloton is cranked. They know the rules, and they know that the fans know the rules.

That's not to say they're bad, or inherently evil, or anything of that nature. But, they KNOW they cheated and did something that is going to be vilified by the general public.

They fight the A positive, because that's all they have left. They may continue denying forever, tearfully. Because they know it's wrong.

That's the point. They know it's wrong.

The internal justifications may work for their time in the peloton, but once they're popped they all crumble...
I don't think they fight because a deep-seated sense of inner guilt. I think they fight because a lot of them feel like there's a justification for what they did, and in getting caught, they are actually the ones being cheated. It drove Pantani mad.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Caruut said:
I don't think they fight because a deep-seated sense of inner guilt. I think they fight because a lot of them feel like there's a justification for what they did, and in getting caught, they are actually the ones being cheated. It drove Pantani mad.
totally agree, and I may have been too subtle in trying to say that in my post re: teammates etc.

They will feel justified in doing what they're doing, but they KNOW it's wrong. That's why they react so strongly on the initial pop. How many times have we seen riders beat their chests, crying "I swear to god, I never did this!".

Haha! Yeah, you did...

They react that way because they know that what they did is an utter betrayal of what they have been pursuing.

It's like paedophiles. They know they're wrong, get caught, deny in the strongest terms.

I can't imagine the psychological pressure of that.
 
Caruut said:
I don't think they fight because a deep-seated sense of inner guilt. I think they fight because a lot of them feel like there's a justification for what they did, and in getting caught, they are actually the ones being cheated. It drove Pantani mad.
I don't have the time to dig through quotes tonight, but that is exactly what I thought after reading interviews with some of the guys who have been busted over the last 10-15 years. Several times the riders have stated something to the effect of "this isn't justice". I always read lines like that as a tacit admission of much more than their own guilt.
 
May 25, 2010
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Just maybe

McLovin said:
I red an interview with Andy Schleck after his brother was busted and he said that he swear on his mothers head that Frank never doped. I red again that line and sit for a few minutes and think
Maybe he doesn't like his mother...

or he's so into the "part" of acting the innocent clean cyclist that everything he says is in the context of the on stage performance.
 
Dec 30, 2010
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Originally Posted by Deagol
Some people not only lie to others, but also to themselves. I believe that it is possible, and even likely, that if you lie to yourself enough about any given situation, a small part of you will actually start to believe your own lies. This may be a psychological defense mechanism against guilt, perhaps?


Jeanne said:
This is possible, yes. The brain generates memory traces, and after a certain point you might be unable to distinguish whether a situation really happend this way or whether it was just imagination. "Real" perception and imagination also activate the same brain regions. It is not entirely clear yet how we are able at all to know what is truly perceived and what is just imagination.
This is true , and is used subconciously as a defense mechanism throughout life , by certain personality types especially those that try to avoid conflict or situations that might lead to conflict or possible situations that are normal to the public but are not perceived as proper to the type of person you are or have been raised to be .
This tends to get worse with age and can really be annoying once over 80 .:rolleyes:
 

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