Acupuncture

[Granville57]

I've never experienced acupuncture myself but I'm curious to hear any firsthand accounts of treatment, whether sports-related or not.

Thanks

 

[Granville57]

Damnit! Could one of the mods correct the spelling of this thread title, please?

 

[palmerq]

Damnit! Could one of the mods correct the spelling of this thread title, please?

yes, well I hope I can this word might not be in my vocabulary, we shall see :S

 

[DirtyWorks]

Anecdote

I have family members that feel helped by it. They look/act helped too. Tried it myself and got nothing from it. Even if there is no science to back it up and the subject feels better, then that's good.

As long as the practitioner is doing it safely, I see no harm in trying a few times and with a few different people with some extra cash. Placebo effect or not, if someone feels measurably better afterward then it's okay by me.

If that sounds like a half-hearted endorsement, then that's about right.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Multiple user.....

I have used accupuncture many times, for differing issues.

First comment, it works best with chronic ailments, rather than acute.

I have had long-term neck & thoracic spinal problems, and after the first major treatment program (12 sessions), I have been more or less pain-free in that region since 1987.

It has proven very effective as a stress-relief treatment over the years as well.

An interesting observation of mine, and that has been agreed with by the practicioners has been that when the treatment is effective, the recipient finds that they will be EXTREMELY tired/sleepy for a period of 12-36 hrs following the first treatment - this reduces after a few sessions, but it has seemingly matched with my sensation of treatment effectiveness at the end of the program.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

This summer I developed a severe case of tendonitis in my right elbow from riding mostly dirt, so bad that I couldn't fully straighten my right arm right away after getting off the bike. After 3 sessions it's totally gone, and no cycling I do now aggravates it.

 

[Suedehead]

For me it worked like a painkiller, with temporary effect. Did it 10-15 weeks. In other words waste of time. 6 month of daily physio worked much better. Better to treat the cause rather than the symptoms I found out.

 

[richwagmn]

We used it on our last dog for hip arthritis. It actually worked well (favoring a leg on the way in, walking on that leg on the way out). Can't think of a placebo effect for a dog. The doc was a licensed vet but also used non-traditional treatments where she thought they could help. I like docs/vets that are open to other treatments.

As others have said, if it helps, why not?

 

[Polyarmour]

My ex wife was a doctor who also did acupuncture. She used to claim 1/3 got signficant benefit, 1/3 got some benefit, 1/3 got no benefit. FWIW.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Plenty of reading on acupuncture and other pseudosciences here. Knock yourself out:
http://debunkatron.com/

Anecdotes noted in posts above are examples of confirmation bias.

 

[Granville57]

Conceited babble...

Hey look, a Christmas Troll!

Thanks, Alex. A very thoughtful and informative post. Perhaps there's an inverse relationship between your level of condescension and your reading comprehension. If the depth and breadth of the OP was too vast, allow me to present the easier to understand, condensed version:

"I've never experienced acupuncture myself but I'm curious to hear any firsthand accounts of treatment, whether sports-related or not."

In a mere two lines of your excellent contribution to the topic at hand, you've managed to insult the intelligence of myself along with everyone that has contributed to the thread thus far. Bravo.

I hope you won't mind too terribly if I pass on your generous offer to "knock myself out" by clicking on a link that pretty much says everything I need to know in the URL alone. But I'm intrigued by your "confirmation bias" theory. I think we can all agree that that was most likely the case with that stupid dog that was so easily fooled by the treatment, no?

But back to the OP. I take it, from the deep insight you've provided us, that you're unable to provide any firsthand evidence as was so politely requested? Because honestly, without that, I really couldn't care any less about any links you provide. You also might make note of the fact that no one so far in this thread has been screaming from the mountain top, declaring acupuncture to be the be-all end-all. There have been some very useful and honest assessments provided, and I appreciate them all. But if I wanted to get baited and trolled I probably would've posed the question in The Clinic and tied it into some sort of acupuncture-as-used-by-US-Postal theme. But you'll notice—if you look very, very carefully—that I didn't actually do that.

Anyway, thanks for playing!
Merry Christmas.

 

[CoachFergie]

Plenty of reading on acupuncture and other pseudosciences here. Knock yourself out:
http://debunkatron.com/

Anecdotes noted in posts above are examples of confirmation bias.

Some good reading there Alex, and judging by the above response your acupuncture needle struck a nerve.

Long may you condescend

 

[Boeing]

I once was blind but acupuncture cured it; happy ending.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

allow me to present the easier to understand, condensed version:

"I've never experienced acupuncture myself but I'm curious to hear any firsthand accounts of treatment, whether sports-related or not."

OK sure, but why seek anecdote, when vast amount of evidence on its (lack of) efficacy actually exists?

Although it's true you haven't said you haven't already read the actual science, I'll acknowledge that.

I just thought it might make for some helpful reading to provide context.

Anyway, thanks for playing!
Merry Christmas.

A pleasure. Best wishes for the festive season and the New Year.

 

[richwagmn]

Plenty of reading on acupuncture and other pseudosciences here. Knock yourself out:
http://debunkatron.com/

Anecdotes noted in posts above are examples of confirmation bias.

Oh oh, someone here is smarter than anyone else. And a link to confirmation bias too! Gee thanks, I SURE didn't know what that was.

Oh yea, chew on this: http://www.scientificamerican.com/p...=mechanism-points-to-acupuncture-pai-10-05-30

 

[Tapeworm]

If only they could develop some way of blocking pain without a needle being stuck into you. Some sort of pill that "kills pain". A painkiller if you will.

That would be neat.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Plenty of reading on acupuncture and other pseudosciences here. Knock yourself out:
http://debunkatron.com/

Anecdotes noted in posts above are examples of confirmation bias.

And so where is the "confirmation bias" in my post?

"A tendency for people to favor information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses regardless of whether the information is true."

There is no preconception or hypothesis, but rather actual experience and related sensations of treatment I have had, by trained professionals in this field in Australia (Nowra, NSW; Canberra, ACT), Finland (Oulu) & China (Zhangmutou & Hangzhou).

You have a "denial bias" on this - have you ever tried or experienced the treatment of Accupuncture by a qualified professional practicioner?

If not (and I assume not by the derogeratory nature of your posting), then I suggest before you exhibit such "denial bias", that you get out of your theory room and try it with a chronic medical condition, but then, who knows, it may make you question your unsubstantiated bias against the practice.

 

[Offtheback]

I've never experienced acupuncture myself but I'm curious to hear any firsthand accounts of treatment, whether sports-related or not.

Thanks

I have had many acupuncture treatments over many years. For various reasons including bursitis of the knee, back pains "feeling flat/lack of energy" etc - various reasons. Results from a good practitioner have generally been excellent. Better in days and long lasting. However I also got acupuncture for a hip problem that did not work; so I sought out a surgeon and eventually had a hip replacement which was 100% successful.

Chinese medicine served people for centuries so I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water and I would also look to modern medicine for major problems. Personally I try and avoid modern pharmaceutical drugs as much as possible as they tend to be "Band-Aid" treatments. A few needles well placed works well for me and I go years without a "cold".

 

[CoachFergie]

And I recall trying to keep track of riders overseas by mail and telephone. I can't believe I was actually able to get through to a rider in Colombia before he rode the World Champs in 1995. Now I Skype from anywhere in the world.

It's called progress.

There are no documented records that acupuncture worked back then as there are now and perhaps many more would have been pain free had they tried other options.

There are that many different "cures" out there. Best bet is to go for something evidence based.

 

[CoachFergie]

There is no preconception or hypothesis, but rather actual experience and related sensations of treatment I have had, by trained professionals in this field in Australia (Nowra, NSW; Canberra, ACT), Finland (Oulu) & China (Zhangmutou & Hangzhou).

Excellent, then you will have no trouble pointing us to the relevent peer review literature.

Denial Bias, how amusing.

 

[elapid]

Peer reviewed literature: 459 articles appear on a PubMed search of "acupuncture + benefit" and 280 articles for a search of "acupuncture + metan-analysis". For those that don't know, a meta-analysis analyzes many articles on the same topic to get a more thorough overview of the success or failure of a treatment or disease. To have 280 meta-analyses on acupuncture alone means that there is a vast body of peer-reviewed scientific literature that has been published on acupuncture. A search for "acupuncture" alone results in 17,272 papers in PubMed. Is that enough peer-reviewed scientific literature for you?

While acupuncture may be considered a pseudo-science by some, Western medicine has a long way to go in both its understanding and acceptance of alternative or Eastern medicines. There will always be sceptics, some well informed and others not. I am surprised by some on this thread that call for peer-reviewed scientific literature when they should have the skills and knowledge to seek that for themselves rather than point towards other pseudo-science non-peer-reviewed websites as justification of their own biases.

I am not trying to convince anyone one way or the other, and I have not used or recommended acupuncture in my own practice, but the science is out there to support its use in many ailments. Now let's see who has the denial bias ...

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Excellent, then you will have no trouble pointing us to the relevent peer review literature.

Denial Bias, how amusing.

Where did I make any claim about reading or being convinced by peer-reviewed articles?

I first went in to the treatment regime with a completely open mind for my first treatments, after many years of "Western" medicine failing to provide any relief for my condition at the time, and with "Evidence-based" results from a sampling of one (being myself), I formed the opinion that it worked that time, and perhaps it may work again, or for others.

Sorry for you if you cannot believe in anything other than peer-reviewed articles, especially your own experiences.

Merry Christmas to all....

 

[CoachFergie]

Peer reviewed literature: 459 articles appear on a PubMed search of "acupuncture + benefit" and 280 articles for a search of "acupuncture + metan-analysis". For those that don't know, a meta-analysis analyzes many articles on the same topic to get a more thorough overview of the success or failure of a treatment or disease. To have 280 meta-analyses on acupuncture alone means that there is a vast body of peer-reviewed scientific literature that has been published on acupuncture. A search for "acupuncture" alone results in 17,272 papers in PubMed. Is that enough peer-reviewed scientific literature for you?

Looking at current reviews there is still considerable debate in the area and most reviews indicate little benefit.

Now let's see who has the denial bias ...

Well at least I looked at the actual reviews. Did you? A lot of the authors claiming a benefit have a financial interest in acupuncture. A bit like the many articles claiming a benefit to weight training in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. The official journal of the National Strength and Conditioning Association.

 

[elapid]

@ Coach Fergie - You're like a broken record. You ask for peer-reviewed scientific literature and then when it is provided you trash it because of potential conflict of interest, bias, flaws in the experimental design, or some other reason, justified or not.

Yes, there will always be debate and that's the point of publishing research findings. When there is enough literature out there on a certain topic, then you can pick and chose which ones suit your purposes and trash the other ones for whatever reasons you chose.

I am quite sure that most of your training methods have not been proven to be scientifically sound in peer-reviewed publications, especially by researchers who do not have a potential conflict of interest. And if your methods have been scientifically proven, then I would wager that I can find a paper refuting those findings. That's the scientific literature for you.

As for you and Alex wanting scientific literature to support the use of acupuncture, you have missed the OP's intent of this thread. As GreaseMonkey pointed out, the OP wanted opinions from other CN members on their experience with acupuncture, not peer-reviewed literature.

 

[CoachFergie]

@ Coach Fergie - You're like a broken record. You ask for peer-reviewed scientific literature and then when it is provided you trash it because of potential conflict of interest, bias, flaws in the experimental design, or some other reason, justified or not.

Yes, there will always be debate and that's the point of publishing research findings. When there is enough literature out there on a certain topic, then you can pick and chose which ones suit your purposes and trash the other ones for whatever reasons you chose.

I am quite sure that most of your training methods have not been proven to be scientifically sound in peer-reviewed publications, especially by researchers who do not have a potential conflict of interest. And if your methods have been scientifically proven, then I would wager that I can find a paper refuting those findings. That's the scientific literature for you.

As for you and Alex wanting scientific literature to support the use of acupuncture, you have missed the OP's intent of this thread. As GreaseMonkey pointed out, the OP wanted opinions from other CN members on their experience with acupuncture, not peer-reviewed literature.

Outstanding. Long live experience and belief based practice

Why bother with science in the first place

I welcome you to find any papers that disprove that power meters actually measure power, short interval training increases performance rapidly and that crank length has almost no effect on performance. A lot of research out there that supports my coaching practices and at worst guides my coaching principles.