Al Jazeera investigation into doping (NFL, Manning etc.)

[BullsFan22]

I hope this expands and that it exposes the PED problem in the NFL. Knowing professional sports in America, particularly the NFL (biggest sport in America?), and how much money is involved and how much stars of the sport are (generally) revered, this might not go as far as we want it to, but hopefully it does:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14441114/documentary-links-peyton-manning-other-pro-athletes-use-peds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2015/12/26/peyton-manning-hgh-report/77936124/

Thoughts? Concerns?

 

[blackcat]

Re: Doping in other sports?

I hope this expands and that it exposes the PED problem in the NFL. Knowing professional sports in America, particularly the NFL (biggest sport in America?), and how much money is involved and how much stars of the sport are (generally) revered, this might not go as far as we want it to, but hopefully it does:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14441114/documentary-links-peyton-manning-other-pro-athletes-use-peds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2015/12/26/peyton-manning-hgh-report/77936124/

Thoughts? Concerns?

my thoughts? Its not a problem if they dont consider it a problem innit?

less a problem, more a dietary staple.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Doping in other sports?

I hope this expands and that it exposes the PED problem in the NFL. Knowing professional sports in America, particularly the NFL (biggest sport in America?), and how much money is involved and how much stars of the sport are (generally) revered, this might not go as far as we want it to, but hopefully it does:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14441114/documentary-links-peyton-manning-other-pro-athletes-use-peds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2015/12/26/peyton-manning-hgh-report/77936124/

Thoughts? Concerns?

my thoughts? Its not a problem if they dont consider it a problem innit?

less a problem, more a dietary staple.

Sarcasm?

 

[blackcat]

Re: Doping in other sports?

I hope this expands and that it exposes the PED problem in the NFL. Knowing professional sports in America, particularly the NFL (biggest sport in America?), and how much money is involved and how much stars of the sport are (generally) revered, this might not go as far as we want it to, but hopefully it does:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14441114/documentary-links-peyton-manning-other-pro-athletes-use-peds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2015/12/26/peyton-manning-hgh-report/77936124/

Thoughts? Concerns?

my thoughts? Its not a problem if they dont consider it a problem innit?

less a problem, more a dietary staple.

Sarcasm?

yeah, but the satire is underpinned by truth. It is both truth and satire.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Doping in other sports?

I hope this expands and that it exposes the PED problem in the NFL. Knowing professional sports in America, particularly the NFL (biggest sport in America?), and how much money is involved and how much stars of the sport are (generally) revered, this might not go as far as we want it to, but hopefully it does:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14441114/documentary-links-peyton-manning-other-pro-athletes-use-peds

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/peyton-manning-human-growth-hormone_567f16e4e4b0b958f6599440

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2015/12/26/peyton-manning-hgh-report/77936124/

Thoughts? Concerns?

my thoughts? Its not a problem if they dont consider it a problem innit?

less a problem, more a dietary staple.

Sarcasm?

yeah, but the satire is underpinned by truth. It is both truth and satire.

True. As I said earlier, I doubt this report actually amounts to anything. I hope it gets somewhere, but I don't think it will.

 

[arcus]

Yes, the credibility of some of the protagonists is questionable, but this might still have some traction.

The key for me is that Manning’s agent did not deny that growth hormone was shipped to the athletes wife, stating that “Any medical treatment received by Ashley is a private matter of hers, her doctor, and her family” Accordingly it would covered by US HIPAA laws, so the clinic cannot comment to press. If the allegations were fabricated and no HGH was shipped to either of them, I'd expect his agent to have emphasized that in the strongest terms, and make it clear that anyone stating otherwise would be pursued in court. That didn't happen, leaving me with the impression that she may indeed have been shipped the drug.
As pointed out in the documentary, HGH prescribing is highly regulated, and restricted to 3 serious conditions (2 of which her body habitus suggests she does not suffer from). Then, the question becomes why on earth would someone with her resources be getting treatment for a complex, serious medical disorder in an anti-aging clinic? Does not compute.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Doping in other sports?

Link to the full video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJRPxmTuxoI

 

[arcus]

The anti-aging clinic in question is 'The Guyer Institute', and Peyton Manning has acknowledged he attended it for medical treatment.

Lots of talk about chronic fatigue syndrome and hormone therapy on their website (including DHEA)
http://www.guyerinstitute.com/index.php/services

It offers PRP therapy, adipose stem cell therapy (neither FDA approved), as well as electromagnetic therapy, enhanced external counterpulsation and 'bioidentical hormone therapy'!

It also offers human HCG (Human chorionic gonadotropin) for weight loss......
http://www.theguyerinstitute.com/index.php/newsletter-a-archive/101-burn-more-calories

Here is an illuminating interview with Dr Guyer
http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=8587

And here is Dr Guyer talking about the stem cell therapy the clinic offers. In the video, it's stated that it can help you live a longer, healthier life.. Really? life prolonging? That's quite a claim!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqrclvFg11w

What on earth is an elite athlete supposed to be doing in a place like that? Please tell me a good journalist will go after this.

 

[the delgados]

Re: Doping in other sports?

Link to the full video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJRPxmTuxoI

Fascinating documentary; I came here to post the link you already provided.
Most memorable quote was from the British athlete/investigative reporter who says it's time to stop asking if athletes use ped's and start asking what we are going to do about it.

 

[Pazuzu]

Re:

The key for me is that Manning’s agent did not deny that growth hormone was shipped to the athletes wife, stating that “Any medical treatment received by Ashley is a private matter of hers, her doctor, and her family” Accordingly it would covered by US HIPAA laws, so the clinic cannot comment to press. If the allegations were fabricated and no HGH was shipped to either of them, I'd expect his agent to have emphasized that in the strongest terms, and make it clear that anyone stating otherwise would be pursued in court. That didn't happen, leaving me with the impression that she may indeed have been shipped the drug.
As pointed out in the documentary, HGH prescribing is highly regulated, and restricted to 3 serious conditions (2 of which her body habitus suggests she does not suffer from). Then, the question becomes why on earth would someone with her resources be getting treatment for a complex, serious medical disorder in an anti-aging clinic? Does not compute.

Excellent post! You're right - it doesn't add up. I just hope the media keep on this. If Manning is going claim that the HGH was for his wife, and then hides behind the 'medical privacy' card, I'm assuming the worst.

Oh, and Manning's mock outrage over this brings to mind a certain outfield for the Milwaukee Brewers. If Manning is guilty, all I can say is Ryan "I'd bet my life" Braun is the better actor. Which is somewhat surprising given all those Peyton Manning TV ads.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Re: Doping in other sports?

Im surprised that the Al Jazeera guys had such a tough time. There are tons of "anti-aging" clinics that will basically give you...anything.

Dave Palumbo from RX Muscle documented his trip to a clinic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKZy-y674_E

 

[Beech Mtn]

Wasn't the HGH supposedly shipped to Mrs. Manning in 2011? She gave birth to twins March 31, 2011. So the HGH is for a woman who is just about to give birth, or just gave birth (possibly nursing?). Seems like any such prescription would have come from her obstetrician or her regular doctor, not an anti-aging clinic.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

The key for me is that Manning’s agent did not deny that growth hormone was shipped to the athletes wife, stating that “Any medical treatment received by Ashley is a private matter of hers, her doctor, and her family” Accordingly it would covered by US HIPAA laws, so the clinic cannot comment to press. If the allegations were fabricated and no HGH was shipped to either of them, I'd expect his agent to have emphasized that in the strongest terms, and make it clear that anyone stating otherwise would be pursued in court. That didn't happen, leaving me with the impression that she may indeed have been shipped the drug.
As pointed out in the documentary, HGH prescribing is highly regulated, and restricted to 3 serious conditions (2 of which her body habitus suggests she does not suffer from). Then, the question becomes why on earth would someone with her resources be getting treatment for a complex, serious medical disorder in an anti-aging clinic? Does not compute.

Excellent post! You're right - it doesn't add up. I just hope the media keep on this. If Manning is going claim that the HGH was for his wife, and then hides behind the 'medical privacy' card, I'm assuming the worst.

Oh, and Manning's mock outrage over this brings to mind a certain outfield for the Milwaukee Brewers. If Manning is guilty, all I can say is Ryan "I'd bet my life" Braun is the better actor. Which is somewhat surprising given all those Peyton Manning TV ads.

Who knows if he used HGH or not? I actually don't care if he used it to recover from his neck surgeries, if his wife used it to recover from pregnancy, if she used it for bowel issues, or if the baby needed it. As to his interview, he seemed genuinely pissed to me, watch his upper lip and eyes as he strains to stay civil.

 

[arcus]

Re: Re:

The key for me is that Manning’s agent did not deny that growth hormone was shipped to the athletes wife, stating that “Any medical treatment received by Ashley is a private matter of hers, her doctor, and her family” Accordingly it would covered by US HIPAA laws, so the clinic cannot comment to press. If the allegations were fabricated and no HGH was shipped to either of them, I'd expect his agent to have emphasized that in the strongest terms, and make it clear that anyone stating otherwise would be pursued in court. That didn't happen, leaving me with the impression that she may indeed have been shipped the drug.
As pointed out in the documentary, HGH prescribing is highly regulated, and restricted to 3 serious conditions (2 of which her body habitus suggests she does not suffer from). Then, the question becomes why on earth would someone with her resources be getting treatment for a complex, serious medical disorder in an anti-aging clinic? Does not compute.

Excellent post! You're right - it doesn't add up. I just hope the media keep on this. If Manning is going claim that the HGH was for his wife, and then hides behind the 'medical privacy' card, I'm assuming the worst.

Oh, and Manning's mock outrage over this brings to mind a certain outfield for the Milwaukee Brewers. If Manning is guilty, all I can say is Ryan "I'd bet my life" Braun is the better actor. Which is somewhat surprising given all those Peyton Manning TV ads.

Who knows if he used HGH or not? I actually don't care if he used it to recover from his neck surgeries, if his wife used it to recover from pregnancy, if she used it for bowel issues, or if the baby needed it. As to his interview, he seemed genuinely pissed to me, watch his upper lip and eyes as he strains to stay civil.

IMO, as a physician, it's implausible that his wife would seek treatment in that clinic for a legitimate medical disorder requiring HGH (if it is indeed the case that they supplied her that drug).

You may not care if he allegedly used HGH to recover from surgery, but I do. PEDS should have no place in sport. Zero tolerance, in my book.

 

[Kennf1]

Re: Re:

[quote="

IMO, as a physician, it's implausible that his wife would seek treatment in that clinic for a legitimate medical disorder requiring HGH (if it is indeed the case that they supplied her that drug).

You may not care if he allegedly used HGH to recover from surgery, but I do. PEDS should have no place in sport. Zero tolerance, in my book.[/quote]


No one with a legitimate medical disorder would be going to an anti-aging quack. The notion that an elite athlete worth upwards of $100 million (or his wife) would seek out this doc for actual medical treatment (as opposed to an easy scrip for HGH) is laughable. Hopefully, this story will put the doctor under the microscope, but hey, this is America, we're all desperate for a "cure" to aging.

 

[Supimilian]

Re: Doping in other sports?

https://youtu.be/wJRPxmTuxoI?t=13m47s

Another one for the list of potential marginal gains? That's def a new one.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

The key for me is that Manning’s agent did not deny that growth hormone was shipped to the athletes wife, stating that “Any medical treatment received by Ashley is a private matter of hers, her doctor, and her family” Accordingly it would covered by US HIPAA laws, so the clinic cannot comment to press. If the allegations were fabricated and no HGH was shipped to either of them, I'd expect his agent to have emphasized that in the strongest terms, and make it clear that anyone stating otherwise would be pursued in court. That didn't happen, leaving me with the impression that she may indeed have been shipped the drug.
As pointed out in the documentary, HGH prescribing is highly regulated, and restricted to 3 serious conditions (2 of which her body habitus suggests she does not suffer from). Then, the question becomes why on earth would someone with her resources be getting treatment for a complex, serious medical disorder in an anti-aging clinic? Does not compute.

Excellent post! You're right - it doesn't add up. I just hope the media keep on this. If Manning is going claim that the HGH was for his wife, and then hides behind the 'medical privacy' card, I'm assuming the worst.

Oh, and Manning's mock outrage over this brings to mind a certain outfield for the Milwaukee Brewers. If Manning is guilty, all I can say is Ryan "I'd bet my life" Braun is the better actor. Which is somewhat surprising given all those Peyton Manning TV ads.

Who knows if he used HGH or not? I actually don't care if he used it to recover from his neck surgeries, if his wife used it to recover from pregnancy, if she used it for bowel issues, or if the baby needed it. As to his interview, he seemed genuinely pissed to me, watch his upper lip and eyes as he strains to stay civil.

IMO, as a physician, it's implausible that his wife would seek treatment in that clinic for a legitimate medical disorder requiring HGH (if it is indeed the case that they supplied her that drug).

You may not care if he allegedly used HGH to recover from surgery, but I do. PEDS should have no place in sport. Zero tolerance, in my book.

I agree, and posted elsewhere, that he has several/multiple other options so it seems strange that he would use this clinic. I would love "drug" free sport as well, but I also know the reality of professional sports. They are alleging that he used HGH when he wasn't playing so it wasn't a PED by definition. I standby my opinion that he should be able to use anything that anyone else can to recover from surgery.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Re:

IMO, as a physician, it's implausible that his wife would seek treatment in that clinic for a legitimate medical disorder requiring HGH (if it is indeed the case that they supplied her that drug).

You may not care if he allegedly used HGH to recover from surgery, but I do. PEDS should have no place in sport. Zero tolerance, in my book.

Really? That's your opinion "as a physician"?

Does "in sport" necessarily equate with "recovering from surgery"?

The biggest joke of this whole fiasco is the specific language and tone currently being used by the major news outlets as they stumble and bumble their way through trying explain the story.

"American Hero"
"Doper"
"Other athletes may be involved"

They've so distorted the narrative, right out of the gate, that's there's no wonder the general public will never be able to come to grips with the reality of doping in all sports, at all levels. By setting this up as some sort of rare event, and creating a black and white scenario in which "doping" will automatically mean a fraudulent career and the downfall of a legacy, it almost ensures that a realistic conversation on the topic of doping in sports can never take place.

As they try so desperately for that OMG moment, that Shock and Awe headline, they leave no room for sober discussions of reality.

DOPER! CHEATER! LIAR!

An NFL player taking a recovery product after surgery?!?! How unfair to those defense lineman trying to remove his head on a weekly basis! OUTRAGEOUS!

 

[arcus]

Re: Re:

The key for me is that Manning’s agent did not deny that growth hormone was shipped to the athletes wife, stating that “Any medical treatment received by Ashley is a private matter of hers, her doctor, and her family” Accordingly it would covered by US HIPAA laws, so the clinic cannot comment to press. If the allegations were fabricated and no HGH was shipped to either of them, I'd expect his agent to have emphasized that in the strongest terms, and make it clear that anyone stating otherwise would be pursued in court. That didn't happen, leaving me with the impression that she may indeed have been shipped the drug.
As pointed out in the documentary, HGH prescribing is highly regulated, and restricted to 3 serious conditions (2 of which her body habitus suggests she does not suffer from). Then, the question becomes why on earth would someone with her resources be getting treatment for a complex, serious medical disorder in an anti-aging clinic? Does not compute.

Excellent post! You're right - it doesn't add up. I just hope the media keep on this. If Manning is going claim that the HGH was for his wife, and then hides behind the 'medical privacy' card, I'm assuming the worst.

Oh, and Manning's mock outrage over this brings to mind a certain outfield for the Milwaukee Brewers. If Manning is guilty, all I can say is Ryan "I'd bet my life" Braun is the better actor. Which is somewhat surprising given all those Peyton Manning TV ads.

Who knows if he used HGH or not? I actually don't care if he used it to recover from his neck surgeries, if his wife used it to recover from pregnancy, if she used it for bowel issues, or if the baby needed it. As to his interview, he seemed genuinely pissed to me, watch his upper lip and eyes as he strains to stay civil.

IMO, as a physician, it's implausible that his wife would seek treatment in that clinic for a legitimate medical disorder requiring HGH (if it is indeed the case that they supplied her that drug).

You may not care if he allegedly used HGH to recover from surgery, but I do. PEDS should have no place in sport. Zero tolerance, in my book.

I agree, and posted elsewhere, that he has several/multiple other options so it seems strange that he would use this clinic. I would love "drug" free sport as well, but I also know the reality of professional sports. They are alleging that he used HGH when he wasn't playing so it wasn't a PED by definition. I standby my opinion that he should be able to use anything that anyone else can to recover from surgery.

If a banned pharmaceutical substance accelerates recovery in one athlete, at the expense of another, then the playing field is uneven. Sports that are signatories to the WADA code rightly (IMO) don't distinguish between recovery drugs vs. other banned substances. I realize that the NFL haven't officially signed up to the WADA code, but that's a story in itself.

 

[Merckx index]

There is obviously a gray area when it comes to recovering from surgery, but the point is, HGH use is banned, period. If people want to use this incident to lobby for the use of certain substances for recovery, go ahead. But it's against the rules now, you don't change the rules in the middle of a case.

Moreover, changing the rules is not that simple. Suppose a player is allowed to use HGH to recover from surgery. When does the recovery stop, and performance enhancement begin? When he returns to competition? But athletes frequently perform when they're not fully recovered. Does this mean a player has to choose between no longer getting treatment that will help him recover, or not returning to action when he's capable of helping his team?

Suppose you let a doctor decide when the recovery period is over. Obviously, a team doctor will stretch that period out to maximize the benefits to the player. Some doctors, as we cycling fans are all too familiar with, will let the athlete continue to take the substance long beyond any recovery period. Indeed, since recovery is a constant phenomenon in any athletic process, it's easy to blur the line and say players should be allowed to take these substances all the time.

It gets even murkier when these substances are used to prolong a career. Many athletes, by using certain substances, can continue to perform at a certain level when, without these substances, their performance would have declined. One can argue that since the athlete is not performing any better than he ever did, the substances are not performance enhancing, but they clearly are measured against the expected baseline created by aging.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

There is obviously a gray area when it comes to recovering from surgery...

Excellent points throughout that post.

 

[arcus]

Interview with Deborah Davis, one of the journos involved in the "dark-side" documentary... Make of it what you will.

http://www.120sports.com/video/v160564828/1on1-with-deborah-davies

 

[Pazuzu]

Re: Re:

Really? That's your opinion "as a physician"?

Does "in sport" necessarily equate with "recovering from surgery"?

The biggest joke of this whole fiasco is the specific language and tone currently being used by the major news outlets as they stumble and bumble their way through trying explain the story.

"American Hero"
"Doper"
"Other athletes may be involved"

They've so distorted the narrative, right out of the gate, that's there's no wonder the general public will never be able to come to grips with the reality of doping in all sports, at all levels. By setting this up as some sort of rare event, and creating a black and white scenario in which "doping" will automatically mean a fraudulent career and the downfall of a legacy, it almost ensures that a realistic conversation on the topic of doping in sports can never take place.

As they try so desperately for that OMG moment, that Shock and Awe headline, they leave no room for sober discussions of reality.

DOPER! CHEATER! LIAR!

An NFL player taking a recovery product after surgery?!?! How unfair to those defense lineman trying to remove his head on a weekly basis! OUTRAGEOUS!

Yes, but HGH is not a permitted by the NFL. If using hormones is such an important component of 'recovery' then the players union should fight like hell to allow players to use them. Until and unless that happens, HGH use needs to be punished.

Moreover, does an adult legitimately really need HGH to recover? I thought the purpose of HGH is for use in children whose bodies are deficient the hormone, or adults who are wasting away from AIDS. NOT in elite athletes in their 20s and 30s who have access to the best in physical therapy, nutrition and weight rooms.

Also, allowing its use to recovery from injuries, will open up Pandora's box. What injuries precisely will allow for its use, and for how long? And what if it does give an unfair advantage by getting a player larger than he otherwise would be without it. Not to mention the long term effects HGH may have. Already the league faces lawsuits for not doing enough to prevent concussions. I could see the same sort of issue arise if HGH use was sanctioned by the league and 10-20 years down the road players start experiencing adverse effects from their use of the treatment.

 

[Merckx index]

Re:

Interview with Deborah Davis, one of the journos involved in the "dark-side" documentary... Make of it what you will.

http://www.120sports.com/video/v160564828/1on1-with-deborah-davies

Many thanks for the link.

Right off the bat, she makes the key point: Manning still hasn’t responded to the allegation that his wife received HGH. Davis says they don’t have documents to confirm this, but claims they have “confirmation that HGH was sent from the clinic to Florida.” I wish the interviewers had followed up on this. Does she just mean that some HGH was sent to someone in Florida around that time? By itself, that much information doesn’t seem very significant. But if they know this much, presumably there is a way to confirm that HGH was sent to Ashley Manning, if it really were. Guyer must have the records.

But this claim is significant in another sense. Guyer is an anti-aging clinic. As others have pointed out, if you really need HGH, you should be getting it from a doctor/clinic specializing in the relatively rare disorder for which it’s legal to use. It seems unlikely that Guyer had a legal basis to ship HGH to anyone. Davis in fact later emphasizes that while anti-aging clinics have been known to prescribe HGH, that is illegal.

She also claims when she called the Guyer Institute and asked about Sly, they looked up the records and told her that Sly did work there in 2011. This confirms what Sly said, but contradicts what some Guyer official told the press after the report came out. So this discrepancy is very interesting, and certainly suggests, at the least, that record-keeping is not very good at the Guyer, and at worst, they lied when asked about this after the report came out.

In the followup analysis, the two interviewing reporters bring up the possibility that HGH was used when the Mannings underwent in vitro fertilization. I can understand Manning wanting to protect their privacy, but a) HGH is not legal for even this use; and b) as a professional athlete for whom HGH use is banned, Manning is surely aware that if HGH were sent to his household for any reason, it would appear suspicious, and if in fact his wife rather than he were using it, he would be expected to point this out, regardless of how he felt about the privacy issue.

As long as Manning continues to stonewall the question of whether his wife received HGH, I'd say that is the best case scenario. That he wasn't doping, but his wife was using the drug illegally, and they don't want to get the clinic in trouble for revealing this.

 

[attila]

Re:

Interview with Deborah Davis, one of the journos involved in the "dark-side" documentary... Make of it what you will.

http://www.120sports.com/video/v160564828/1on1-with-deborah-davies

Compelling