Aluminum Framed Bikes Coming Back?

[86TDFWinner]

Not that they ever left mind you, just that alot of the big manufacturers went w/Carbon composite frames & the masses followed. Anyways, the latest issue of Bicycling Magazine(very good by the way, their "Buyers Guide" issue) has a nice article about how aluminum bikes are making their way back. I don't know how soon before we see alot more of them on the tour, but I've always liked aluminum frames, and wouldn't mind seeing this resurgence. Any thoughts on this? Do you see aluminum bikes coming back in a mjor way, or is it going to be here and there?

 

[alitogata]

For me Carbon frames was a huge expensive hype that worked for a while. Aluminum frames, and especially some very sofisticated and expensive ones, can work and always worked just fine in and out of races.. (f.e Cannondales CAAD10 etc).

I believe also, that one of the reasons that Aluminum as material will get back, is the fact that the raw materials to composite Carbon exist mainly in Asia, which currently has the main production of Carbon frames too. China for example applied recently new laws that limit supply of raw materials to other countries, controling this way the competition and the production prices. So the manufacturing of cf frames has become more and more expensive for bike companies and due to recession in Europe, unprofitable as well.

I predict that cycling industry will turn to aluminum again, starting from races, (perhaps even titanium and steel) generally in materials that can bring the production back to the cycling companies' countries. After all the markets' target group are not racers, but the big masses who get "inspired" by races. But the main reason will be that they want to bring back the production from Asia countries because has started costing them too much.

 

[Parrulo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy

maybe titanium alloys will jump into the industry?

let's face it aluminium is cheap and the big companies want something they can sell at an high price as an luxury item (the typical fred market ) and titanium alloys gather all necessary characteristics

even more expensive then carbon fiber but also better (lighter and tougher)

just an idea. . .

 

[alitogata]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy

maybe titanium alloys will jump into the industry?

let's face it aluminium is cheap and the big companies want something they can sell at an high price as an luxury item (the typical fred market ) and titanium alloys gather all necessary characteristics

even more expensive then carbon fiber but also better (lighter and tougher)

just an idea. . .

The main problem with titanium alloys is that there are no well trained and experienced technicians to build them into frames. Carbon manufacturing doesn't need specialized people to do the job. Even inexperienced workers, like those that work in China's factories, can learn how to apply carbon fiber or resins etc in order to build frames on mass, line production and cover market's demands. This can't be done with titanium which needs very precise work in order to be build properly into a frame.

Titanium alloys are not that cheap as well.

 

[ElChingon]

Aluminum frames will not come back to the Pro Peloton, lets hope some sanity remains in human kind.

 

[alitogata]

Aluminum frames will not come back to the Pro Peloton, lets home some sanity remains in human kind.

Whyyyyyy???

 

[86TDFWinner]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy

maybe titanium alloys will jump into the industry?

let's face it aluminium is cheap and the big companies want something they can sell at an high price as an luxury item (the typical fred market ) and titanium alloys gather all necessary characteristics

even more expensive then carbon fiber but also better (lighter and tougher)

just an idea. . .

I think the biggest problem I see with Titanium frames is that its a very hard metal and it wears the tools needed to make it, down quicker, making it more expensive to produce Imo. Plus, I believe there's really no big margin for error with Ti frames. Just my opinion.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't know about AL but it will be interesting to see what happens with carbon, which has been pushed by the bike industry because it is cheap to manufacture and can be sold at a premium. The no-name frames are steadily eating away at the idea that carbon deserves a huge price markup. What is more, the no-name manufacturers are getting better and quicker at making reasonable facsimiles of name brand products. For example, right now you can buy a cheapo copy of a time trial frame that looks like it is modeled on a Cervelo P5.

NAHBS gets bigger every year. I think there could be a trend at the high end to go back to small builders. The prices are not unreasonable compared to what Canontrekalized is charging for their stock frames. Also gravel racing and cyclocross is growing rapidly so that will influence future trends.

 

[Boeing]

those caad 10s arent cheap IMHO. but will cannondale start selling frames again? I wont buy a complete bike. never have

 

[fuketa ojisan]

Dear 86TDF Winner

Since you've got it in your signature ...

Here is a section from a 1998 Sports Illustrated article
about Greg Lemond.
Look carefully at the word "iron".

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/cycling/1998/tourdefrance/tourdefrancea

"I came back to the room and was ready to cry," he recalls. "I called Kathy that night and told her, 'Get ready to sell everything. I want no obligations. If things don't turn around, I'm quitting at the end of the year.' " She didn't try to talk him out of it. It was the lowest point in his cycling career.

Shortly after that phone call, things began to turn. LeMond had a second injection of iron and started feeling stronger. He actually stayed within shouting distance of the leaders on a late mountain stage of the Tour of Italy, which was such a morale booster that he wanted an all-out test. Being hopelessly out of contention in the overall standings, LeMond decided to go for broke in the final stage of the Tour of Italy, an individual time trial of just under 34 miles. He would hold nothing back, start to finish. If he ran out of gas — "blew up," in cycling parlance — so be it. But LeMond didn't blow up. He finished second, a whopping minute and 18 seconds ahead of Fignon, the overall winner. "It changed my entire outlook," says LeMond. "Obviously, there was nothing wrong with me physically."

Some sources say EPO became commercially available in Europe in 1987. Certainly it was produced a decade before that. So perhaps prototypes were available in 1986.

 

[fatsprintking]

those caad 10s arent cheap IMHO. but will cannondale start selling frames again? I wont buy a complete bike. never have

In Australia they are cheap and outstanding value - better to buy a 105 equipped bike and put the bits on my CAAD 4 training bike and then build the CAAD10 up the way I want as a race bike.

I always stuck with Aluminum - for me it is the best "feeling" material for what I want in a stiff sprinting frame. CAAD10 is about the best you can get for a alloy frame and really more than almost anyone really needs.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Not that they ever left mind you, just that alot of the big manufacturers went w/Carbon composite frames & the masses followed. Anyways, the latest issue of Bicycling Magazine(very good by the way, their "Buyers Guide" issue) has a nice article about how aluminum bikes are making their way back. I don't know how soon before we see alot more of them on the tour, but I've always liked aluminum frames, and wouldn't mind seeing this resurgence. Any thoughts on this? Do you see aluminum bikes coming back in a mjor way, or is it going to be here and there?

Well, carbon and glue are cheap, the margins are huge. Actually welding metal together takes skills that most of the Asian assemblers/frame companies don't have. All about margin and the ease at which carbon can be shaped and whiz-banged up and then hyped.

Metal frames never 'left', many are still made but the margins will prevent them from being mainstream any longer, IMHO.

Carbon is everywhere, carbon is boring and most ride like crappola but 'win on Sunday, sell on Monday', is alive and well.

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

A couple overlooked aspects of the comeback of aluminum is the rising labor rates in Asia and the cost of transportation, the big brands have started the migration to South America for cheap mass production. Another one would be that it's a catch 22 for the bike industry which by nature cares about the environment to be caught up chasing the cheap carbon dream to fill the lower tiers of their lines when one carbon frame takes 4-5 times the amount of energy to produce than a steel or aluminum frame, recycling is virtually impossible with carbon and almost always ends up in a landfill, don't need to tell most of you how toxic those epoxies are. Metal frames are easily turned over and recycled, much easier on the environment.

Carbon still rules on race day, love racing mine, and there will be no resurgence of Aluminum back in to the Pro Tour. At local club level?... hell yes!

 

[Giuseppe Magnetico]

NAHBS gets bigger every year. I think there could be a trend at the high end to go back to small builders. The prices are not unreasonable compared to what Canontrekalized is charging for their stock frames. Also gravel racing and cyclocross is growing rapidly so that will influence future trends.

Fat tire road bikes all over the show this weekend, bout to head down there for one last day in a blizzard. Only makes sense, not only to spread out and get out of traffic, but the conditions of most paved roads these days make gravel I ride feel like glass. Where's all that DOT tax money going eh?

 

[avanti]

........................
the fact that the raw materials to composite Carbon exist mainly in Asia, which currently has the main production of Carbon frames too. China for example applied recently new laws that limit supply of raw materials to other countries, controling this way the competition and the production prices. .....................

Carbon fiber cloths and tapes is readily available in the USA and Europe and so are the epoxies needed to fabricate carbon fiber structures whether it be bike frames, skis, tennis rackets, autoparts, aircraft parts, etc.

 

[Boeing]

In Australia they are cheap and outstanding value - better to buy a 105 equipped bike and put the bits on my CAAD 4 training bike and then build the CAAD10 up the way I want as a race bike.

I always stuck with Aluminum - for me it is the best "feeling" material for what I want in a stiff sprinting frame. CAAD10 is about the best you can get for a alloy frame and really more than almost anyone really needs.

Caad 4 was the deadest and non compliant frame I ever road. I hate that dead feeling.

however out of the saddle the lateral stiffness was superior and perhaps part of the feeling you enjoy

are the stays on the 10 a little more vertically compliant?

 

[fatsprintking]

Caad 4 was the deadest and non compliant frame I ever road. I hate that dead feeling.

however out of the saddle the lateral stiffness was superior and perhaps part of the feeling you enjoy

are the stays on the 10 a little more vertically compliant?

CAAD 10 seems to ride less harshly while still having that stiff solid feeling of other CAAD's.

My CAAD 4 is nice to ride, but I am 85kg and ride handbuilt ambrosio box section rims. The early caads are very sensitive to wheel choice and I can see if you were lighter and had a harsh set of wheels they would not seem nice. Front ends on the caad4 if you have one of the threadless steerer types is very good and very solid with the nice time fork - just a bit heavier than new stuff but very solid feel.

 

[alitogata]

Carbon fiber cloths and tapes is readily available in the USA and Europe and so are the epoxies needed to fabricate carbon fiber structures whether it be bike frames, skis, tennis rackets, autoparts, aircraft parts, etc.

I agree but these are not the raw materials I meant. The substances for making carbon fiber in the first place and the epoxies etc are all produced in Asia and some of them in China.

 

[perpetuum mobile]

aluminum is not coming back

Aluminum and carbon both are great materials for frames but aluminum bikes will not return in the high-end market. It is not because carbon is better. As others mentioned before, it is probably easier and cheaper to produce carbon frames. Therefore, big companies like Giant, Spec, Trek will keep marketing carbon as a superior material.

I am tired all that BS about "lateral stiffens an vertical compliance", "unique carbon fiber layout schedule", "XX% increase in stiffness and XX% more aerodynamic".

 

[ElChingon]

Whyyyyyy???

Why? Well lets see you love the Cannondales, but don't they use a Carbon Fork? If you liked aluminum so much why not get an aluminum fork, you don't like carbon so toss it!

Here's a true Aluminum bike for you Aluminum users and cheap too! Hey look its made in China, what a coincidence! Looks like they actually taught a few Chinese to tig weld

Buy it now! http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOCUS-AERO-...81049557023?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item416fdbe81f

Also, that's just the first one I found I'm sure there's a ChinaDale if you look hard enough but I will leave that to you Aluminum Lovers, I don't want to take that pleasure away from you's.

PS: Get dental insurance and stock up on gel bar wrap.

 

[BroDeal]

Why? Well lets see you love the Cannondales, but don't they use a Carbon Fork? If you liked aluminum so much why not get an aluminum fork, you don't like carbon so toss it!

I still have a pre-Trek Klein (original Quantum) with an SR or Sakai bonded AL fork. It is no longer built up but that baby was smooth. The funny thing is the tubes in the main triangle seem to be the same diameter as the tubes in my Moots' front triangle, which is way different than the stove pipes Cannondale used.

 

[ElChingon]

I still have a pre-Trek Klein (original Quantum) with an SR or Sakai bonded AL fork. It is no longer built up but that baby was smooth. The funny thing is the tubes in the main triangle seem to be the same diameter as the tubes in my Moots' front triangle, which is way different than the stove pipes Cannondale used.

That baby was smooth on SMOOTH roads, add in a rough road and 50 miles and get back to me how smooth that bike is.

I rode two different Aluminum frames and sure they were great for the short crit on smooth roads or shall I say business park streets, but go out to the outskirts of the city on it and ride a good 50 -70 miles and see how great that frame is. I do not forget the random unseen pothole/rock/branch feeling, no way will I go back.

 

[BroDeal]

That baby was smooth on SMOOTH roads, add in a rough road and 50 miles and get back to me how smooth that bike is.

I rode two different Aluminum frames and sure they were great for the short crit on smooth roads or shall I say business park streets, but go out to the outskirts of the city on it and ride a good 50 -70 miles and see how great that frame is. I do not forget the random unseen pothole/rock/branch feeling, no way will I go back.

Nope. I did zillions of hundred mile rides on it. The fork is most of what accounts for a bike's ride. The rest is tires.

 

[alitogata]

Why? Well lets see you love the Cannondales, but don't they use a Carbon Fork? If you liked aluminum so much why not get an aluminum fork, you don't like carbon so toss it!

Here's a true Aluminum bike for you Aluminum users and cheap too! Hey look its made in China, what a coincidence! Looks like they actually taught a few Chinese to tig weld

Buy it now! http://www.ebay.com/itm/FOCUS-AERO-...81049557023?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item416fdbe81f

Also, that's just the first one I found I'm sure there's a ChinaDale if you look hard enough but I will leave that to you Aluminum Lovers, I don't want to take that pleasure away from you's.

PS: Get dental insurance and stock up on gel bar wrap.

I do have an all aluminum + aluminum fork bike and I bought it exactly for what it is. And trust me I don't need a dental insurance because my bike is super smooth with my 48 kilos on it. So the next time you would like to be ironic.. ask first.. ( My bike is a Trek Lexa +Campagnolo Athena 10sp and Ambrosio Laser comp wheels with ceramic ball bearings. Handlebar, stem and saddle post are all from titanium).

ETA: What you really missing is that I will be able to sell my all aluminum bike in ten years from now ( if I don't crash it or destroy it somehow ) even in the one third of its price.. Someone will be interested to buy it.. But as far as I know no one will like to buy a ten years old carbon bike frame.. and I'm saying this because I know that people don't buy now 2003 carbon bike frames. That's a serious indication about the longevity of a frame material.

 

[fatsprintking]

I've got an aluminum fork bike as well as my beater. Its locally built Evolution from the mid 90's. Maybe the stiffest/harshest bike ever made with main tubes that are cannondale sized but stays that are twice as big as a dale. Really tight rear triangle as well and steep criterium angles - its not that bad to ride and the only time I really dont like it is on really rough dirt roads .

Really its not about hating carbon for me. i just prefer an aluminium frame. When its going to get chucked n the back of cars, crashed, and generally get a hard life, i'll pass n carbon every time. Mountain bike is alloy too and this makes sense on something that is going to get crashed a lot and take big hits with stones and sticks thrown up from the trail.