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Antoine Vayer's newspaper column

Sep 26, 2009
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I thought I would make this a thread as it was buried in the Voeckler doping thread and makes very interesting reading. The translations refer to drivers - this should be riders.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.liberation.fr/sports/0101581939-contador-du-kerosene-dans-les-veines&ei=2OonTszhAsfNhAf7wqn-CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQ7gEwAA&prev=/search?q=http://www.liberation.fr/sports/0101581939-contador-du-kerosene-dans-les-veines&hl=en&sa=G&prmd=ivns

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search?q=http://www.liberation.fr/sports/0101581939-contador-du-kerosene-dans-les-veines&hl=en&sa=G&prmd=ivns&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=fr&u=http://www.liberation.fr/sports/0101582120-le-tour-2009-vraiment-propre&usg=ALkJrhhluJ-fXB3szDU4Q9AvaSh6dd14bQ

AND

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/sport/Cancellara_ist_eher_Darth_Vader_als_Spartakus_.html?cid=15351746&ei=wuYnTuXLLcK5hAfDzs3_CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ7gEwAA&prev=/search?q=http://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/sport/Cancellara_ist_eher_Darth_Vader_als_Spartakus_.html%3Fcid%3D15351746&hl=en&sa=G&prmd=ivns

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/202606.ueber-410-watt-ist-doping.html&ei=d-gnTvK6CpGyhAeVl6DsCQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q7gEwAA&prev=/search?q=http://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/202606.ueber-410-watt-ist-doping.html&hl=en&sa=G&prmd=ivns
 
Nov 10, 2009
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Antoine Vayer 2009 column in Libération

Cycle Chic said:
I thought I would make this a thread as it was buried in the Voeckler doping thread and makes very interesting reading. The translations refer to drivers - this should be riders.
..........
Why do you bring back a 2009 article?
Do you think that after the rest day Contador2011 = Contador 2009 ?
While before the rest day we had Contador 2011 = 90% Contador 2009 ?
 
Sep 26, 2009
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I wrote ' interesting reading', and like myself other forum readers may not be aware of Vayers column - so roll your neck in !
 
Nov 17, 2009
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the stuff about the 410 watts being limit as being clean is pretty interesting..if thats the case a lot of pro riders would have some explaining to do.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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The calculations used to produce in the figures in the article are wrong. This was proven in 2009 when the article was published - we don't need fanciful figures to show that Contador is a cheat, we've got a positive test and hopefully a two year ban to coming up! :)
 
Nov 10, 2009
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Cycle Chic said:
I wrote ' interesting reading', and like myself other forum readers may not be aware of Vayers column - so roll your neck in !
Sorry Majesty for annoying your Highness.
 
Oct 16, 2009
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wattage said:
the stuff about the 410 watts being limit as being clean is pretty interesting..if thats the case a lot of pro riders would have some explaining to do.
Is it interesting or is it bull****? I can't tell. :confused:
 
Aug 3, 2009
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goggalor said:
Is it interesting or is it bull****? I can't tell. :confused:
The numbers being discussed in the Power Data Estimates thread would suggest that article is trending towards the latter...
 
May 3, 2010
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Apollonius said:
The calculations used to produce in the figures in the article are wrong. This was proven in 2009 when the article was published - we don't need fanciful figures to show that Contador is a cheat, we've got a positive test and hopefully a two year ban to coming up! :)
How/where are the calculations wrong - this is not to doubt you, but like the OP I'm interested.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Mrs John Murphy said:
How/where are the calculations wrong - this is not to doubt you, but like the OP I'm interested.
How are they wrong? This is part of the problem of accusing riders of doping without adequate experience working with high level athletes. Throwing around statements like "410W is the limit" clearly shows lack of exposure, maybe he should qualify his statement with a weight figure. I personally know people with 400W FTPs and they are not professional, the strongest guy i know has an FTP of around 420W and he's a national amateur champion. You can of course accuse them of doping but anyone who races or knows someone talented personally will know that "410W is the limit" is total nonsense. The people who know, know, the rest is inexperienced posturing on the internet.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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function said:
How are they wrong? This is part of the problem of accusing riders of doping without adequate experience working with high level athletes. Throwing around statements like "410W is the limit" clearly shows lack of exposure, maybe he should qualify his statement with a weight figure. I personally know people with 400W FTPs and they are not professional, the strongest guy i know has an FTP of around 420W and he's a national amateur champion. You can of course accuse them of doping but anyone who races or knows someone talented personally will know that "410W is the limit" is total nonsense. The people who know, know, the rest is inexperienced posturing on the internet.
You can't possibly accuse Vayer of not being experienced.
So according to your dichotomy, he should know.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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sniper said:
You can't possibly accuse Vayer of not being experienced.
So according to your dichotomy, he should know.
I'm accusing someone of claiming 410W as the limit as being wrong as real life clearly proves otherwise and i stand by that statement. Just because someone is a professor (even physiology), it doesn't make them an authority as they have been wrong on many counts. What i particularly don't agree with is the arbitrary "410W" line.
 
Sep 26, 2009
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I think you should google Antoine Vayer as you clearly have no idea who he is - thats the whole point of the thread.
 
May 26, 2010
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function said:
I'm accusing someone of claiming 410W as the limit as being wrong as real life clearly proves otherwise and i stand by that statement. Just because someone is a professor (even physiology), it doesn't make them an authority as they have been wrong on many counts. What i particularly don't agree with is the arbitrary "410W" line.
410W being wrong as the limit! what are you basing that on?

It is not far off what Lemond was claiming to be the max output for non doped riders on climbs, 410-420W....
 
May 3, 2010
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Lets approach the 410 figure logically.

Ferrari also gives a figure at which it is impossible to achieve without doping. I don't have this figure to hand but someone has quoted it in the power estimates thread as I recall.

So it is clear that quite a few people believe that there is a 'threshold' at which performances can only be achieved with medical aid.

The claim is the 410 figure is wrong.

Function - serious question - how many people do you know who have produced above this figure? What is the sample size? How often can they produce this kind of performance and for how long? What were the circumstances when they gave these performances ie lab or on the road? in a race after 200km or in training?
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Cycle Chic said:
I think you should google Antoine Vayer as you clearly have no idea who he is - thats the whole point of the thread.
One of the tenets of the scientific community is being free to question positions regardless of the originator's name. I know who Antoine Vayer is, and i still do not consider him the definitive authority on human physiological limitations. You are of course free to do so.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Function - serious question - how many people do you know who have produced above this figure? What is the sample size? How often can they produce this kind of performance and for how long? What were the circumstances when they gave these performances ie lab or on the road? in a race after 200km or in training?
I know 3 people personally who can produce at least 400W at FTP, with FTP being defined as 1hr maximal power when well rested and motivated. They were all done during training or racing usually as an ITT, these are all "elite" amateurs.
 
Nov 10, 2009
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function said:
I know 3 people personally who can produce at least 400W at FTP, with FTP being defined as 1hr maximal power when well rested and motivated. They were all done during training or racing usually as an ITT, these are all "elite" amateurs.
I also know one guy, almost 60 years old, who can do that, however, as he weighs almost 100 kg it takes him a long time to climb Alpe d'huez:D
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Benotti69 said:
410W being wrong as the limit! what are you basing that on?

It is not far off what Lemond was claiming to be the max output for non doped riders on climbs, 410-420W....
Let me ask you this, do you believe that Lemond is the pinnacle of human physiology? The absolute limit of what we are capable of?
 
Cycle Chic said:
I think you should google Antoine Vayer as you clearly have no idea who he is - thats the whole point of the thread.
We know who he is.

I know who he is. But here in this forum the information is being misslead. It is not the absolute values of power that matter, but the unit power per kilogram that is relevant.

And I know Vayer knows this, so this has nothing to do with him.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Escarabajo said:
We know who he is.

I know who he is. But here in this forum the information is being misslead. It is not the absolute values of power that matter, but the unit power per kilogram that is relevant.

And I know Vayer knows this, so this has nothing to do with him.
From the 2nd article posted;

So he's basing his calculations on extrapolated data from a hill climb after 4 hours of riding 2 weeks into a GC with varying levels of fatigue for each rider, GC tactics being employed, wind, altitude and drafting.

The scientist in me tells me that is not a good test environment for determining physiological limits. What do you think?
 
Nov 10, 2009
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function said:
.........
The scientist in me tells me ..........
If you are a scientist you should tackle the problem scientifically.

Go back and look at what Antoine Vayer and Frédéric Portoleau have written in the past ( for example in cyclismag.com) detailing their method.

Alternatively, if you are allergic to French, you could educate yourselg on sportsscientist.com
 

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