Are the police the most effective anti-doping organization out there?

[Mrs John Murphy]

Serious question - if we look back at it - Festina, Puerto, Mantova, the Armstrong investigation, in each case, headway has been made by the police where the sporting authorities failed.

If it weren't for customs stopping Voet then Festina would have got away with it, Basso/Ullrich and all the OP riders would still be going strong (although no thanks to the Spanish judiciary who have protected the Spanish riders involved), its highly unlikely Ballan etc would have been caught if it weren't for the wire taps.

It seems pretty clear that while the sport is good at catching the odd individual doping case (ie someone who overcooks it) the police are the only ones able to bring down the huge doping networks.

Now if only we could get the Swiss police to investigate the UCI...

 

[ludwig]

A positive test can be disputed, and tells us nothing about the larger doping network and who was involved in getting the dope to the atheltes.

Police intervention to seize banned substances and arrest traffikers is always going to be more effective.

I think media intervention could potentially be just as effective, but obviously the media doesn't have the power to obtain warrants and search for evidence.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

And most of the media is unwilling to get involved in such things as well.

I think what it shows is that the police are the only ones with the resources and skills to crack down on the networks. The UCI/WADA etc can't wiretap Nadal, or Cavendish, or put Dertie under surveillance etc

It is perhaps a compelling case for making doping/aiding doping a criminal act to put it more within the remit of police action than it currently is.

 

[hfer07]

Serious question - if we look back at it - Festina, Puerto, Mantova, the Armstrong investigation, in each case, headway has been made by the police where the sporting authorities failed.

If it weren't for customs stopping Voet then Festina would have got away with it, Basso/Ullrich and all the OP riders would still be going strong (although no thanks to the Spanish judiciary who have protected the Spanish riders involved), its highly unlikely Ballan etc would have been caught if it weren't for the wire taps.

It seems pretty clear that while the sport is good at catching the odd individual doping case (ie someone who overcooks it) the police are the only ones able to bring down the huge doping networks.

Now if only we could get the Swiss police to investigate the UCI...

+ 100

I'd like to add also National Policies against Doping- CONI, French & German federations seem be working hard on that aspect, instead of relying on the incompetence of UCI & McQuaid

 

[ulrikmm]

In my opinion, systematic doping is part of organized crime, and that police investigations is the way to follow against these organisations. Is the italian mafia involved in doping? Distribution of doping to cycling, soccer, tennis etc. is probably quite financially rewarding.

 

[Benotti69]

In my opinion, systematic doping is part of organized crime, and that police investigations is the way to follow against these organisations. Is the italian mafia involved in doping? Distribution of doping to cycling, soccer, tennis etc. is probably quite financially rewarding.

Is the mafia in Italy is taking care of Italian athletes, who is it in Spain, USA and other countries?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Is the mafia in Italy is taking care of Italian athletes, who is it in Spain, USA and other countries?

Ah, you mean in the countries without organized crime.

 

[Oldman]

In my opinion, systematic doping is part of organized crime, and that police investigations is the way to follow against these organisations. Is the italian mafia involved in doping? Distribution of doping to cycling, soccer, tennis etc. is probably quite financially rewarding.

There is alot of smuggling of many things into Italy from former Soviet controlled states. Counterfeit goods/drugs have been rumored to route through Montenegro for some time so it's not beyond possibility that Interpol and the Italian authorities would start on their turf.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

There is alot of smuggling of many things into Italy from former Soviet controlled states. Counterfeit goods/drugs have been rumored to route through Montenegro for some time so it's not beyond possibility that Interpol and the Italian authorities would start on their turf.

Also human trafficking as well. A lot comes via Moldova/Ukraine because the border is so long and so porous. A couple of my friends have worked on the border and have some pretty shocking stories.

There is a point in this - really the riders are just the users. The people who really need to be the targets are the suppliers, dealers and the facilitators, and ultimately you are never going to get those guys with a positive test and the only way to go about it is to treat them as the criminals that they are. You can no longer blow doping off as 'who cares about a bunch of guys riding bikes and shooting up epo in a hotel room.'

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Also human trafficking as well. A lot comes via Moldova/Ukraine because the border is so long and so porous. A couple of my friends have worked on the border and have some pretty shocking stories.

There is a point in this - really the riders are just the users. The people who really need to be the targets are the suppliers, dealers and the facilitators, and ultimately you are never going to get those guys with a positive test and the only way to go about it is to treat them as the criminals that they are. You can no longer blow doping off as 'who cares about a bunch of guys riding bikes and shooting up epo in a hotel room.'

Absolutely! I'm a vigorous proponent of cleaning cycling up, but opposed to the useless approach of levying harsher penalties on individual riders.

No man is an island, no one lives in a vaccuum, and no one just happens to find boxes of EPO etc in a ditch with explicit instructions attached.

Penalizing riders at this point (where there is such an established infrastructure internationally) may scare a few who are on the bubble of getting on a program, but will do nothing to clean up the larger picture of doping in cycling (and sport in general for that matter).

Focusing on the riders, and ignoring the infrastructure (including questionable team staff), is nice for public consumption but will never clean up the sport.

The police are the only ones on the right track...

 

[Benotti69]

Ah, you mean in the countries without organized crime.

but with organised doping.

I was waiting for someone to pipe up with, Gunderson runs it in the US of A.

 

[D-Queued]

Serious question ... Now if only we could get the Swiss police to investigate the UCI...

Here is the UCI's 2001 view on the EPO scourge:

the International Cycling Union revealed yesterday that of the 122 of the 170 drug samples taken on the Tour tested there so far, only one - from Txema Del Olmo - had been positive. They concluded: "We think that the problem of EPO no longer influences cycling at the highest level."

No point in investigating the UCI if they already removed the problem of EPO from the sport.

(just posted the same quote on the Ballan thread, but it deserved mention here as well)

Dave.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Here is the UCI's 2001 view on the EPO scourge:

the International Cycling Union revealed yesterday that of the 122 of the 170 drug samples taken on the Tour tested there so far, only one - from Txema Del Olmo - had been positive. They concluded: "We think that the problem of EPO no longer influences cycling at the highest level."

No point in investigating the UCI if they already removed the problem of EPO from the sport.

(just posted the same quote on the Ballan thread, but it deserved mention here as well)

Dave.

Haven't they been telling us that the Biopassport has been doing the same...

I think its a valid point - dope testing catches 1 in 170, one raid/investigation can sweep up 20 odd riders, DS's doctors etc

JMB - I agree. I've long argued that we can't take the sport seriously while the likes of Riis, Hog, Holm, Aldag, Neil Stephens, Och, Matt White, Zabel, Yates etc are still involved. Busting Ricco or DDL is easy. Kicking out the doping infrastructure is much harder and something that the sport does not have the capacity, ability or leadership to do.

 

[D-Queued]

Haven't they been telling us that the Biopassport has been doing the same...

I think its a valid point - dope testing catches 1 in 170, one raid/investigation can sweep up 20 odd riders, DS's doctors etc

JMB - I agree. I've long argued that we can't take the sport seriously while the likes of Riis, Hog, Holm, Aldag, Neil Stephens, Och, Matt White, Zabel, Yates etc are still involved. Busting Ricco or DDL is easy. Kicking out the doping infrastructure is much harder and something that the sport does not have the capacity, ability or leadership to do.

More like dope testing will result in one rider in 170 being thrown under the bus, as this is consistent with the doping is less than 1% statements.

Tips from Chaperones, donations to the UCI, and protected riders are much more effective than one raid/investigation in doping management

Dave.

 

[joe_papp]

The police are the only ones on the right track...

As an expert on this, I have to agree...lamentably.

 

[Clearly Unstable]

Seeing as the "war on drugs" has be going on here in Merica for 40+ years and "controlled substances" are a common as LA haters on the CN forums, I'm not sure they're quite ready to now address cycling worlds issues.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The optimum words being most effective, I'd say the answer is definitely yes.

I need to dig up the quote, but Jacques Anquetil, whom everyone knows doped and almost casually admitted so, once said something like he felt testing was fallible, and if doping really became a serious enough problem it would and should be investigated by the police, and they were the only ones he trust to be impartial anyway. I'd sure like it if someone could verify/correct this or find his actual wording, but that was the gist of it.

Either way, fifty years later little has changed.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

As an expert on this, I have to agree...lamentably.

Tough to argue with a primary source. Thanks for showing up, JP.

 

[Oldman]

Seeing as the "war on drugs" has be going on here in Merica for 40+ years and "controlled substances" are a common as LA haters on the CN forums, I'm not sure they're quite ready to now address cycling worlds issues.

When the "war on drugs" included pot it was a lost cause. It was clearly an inclusion in the fight that has politically pandered to the conservative element and has proven to be a huge failure; rather than an income source that could generate treatment funds for more serious drug abuse.
The difference here is that serious, big and moneyed Drug Corporations want it stopped. You want it stopped if you have to rely on the purity of a prescription or wonder what turn terrorism might take.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

didn't read the thread. But the answer to your question is: yes.

 

[brianf7]

The fear of a Police raid is always going to be more intimidating than any raid from any UCI- WADA agents.
If that is going to stop the ilegal practice but will it. The people involved in Doping cant see that they are breaking the law. if you need a pill take it and that phrase came from many top cyclists and Tour winners.
If we have a cold we take a asprin its no difference. personal choice.

 

[L'arriviste]

There is alot of smuggling of many things into Italy from former Soviet controlled states. Counterfeit goods/drugs have been rumored to route through Montenegro for some time so it's not beyond possibility that Interpol and the Italian authorities would start on their turf.

My research so far has suggested some interesting origins. I have recorded examples of PED trafficking from Poland, Serbia, Egypt, China and Ukraine.

Having said that, sometimes there are more prosaic sources: a public cancer clinic in the Walloon town of La Louvière, for example.

For a more general contribution to this thread, I requote Dr de Mondenard from last week's Le Soir:

LS: Hasn't a tool like the bio-passport enabled the sport to separate the wheat from the chaff? The Italians have nearly disappeared from the podiums they used to all but own...

PdM: That's not down to the bio-passport. It's the police raids that have done that. Doctors and riders alike are now afraid of getting caught in the act. What's changed with the "passport" is that the dopers have gotten smarter. How many of them have been pinched thanks to the "passport" when compared to those bagged by police raids like Puerto? Two or three, versus dozens of them. It's laughable.

 

[ultimobici]

Seems if something isn't treated as a criminal offence it is viewed as an option or choice that one is free to decide for oneself.

Perhaps we need the police involved because it seems 2 years sitting on the sidelines of the sport is no deterrent. Perhaps a stint in clink will make it less attractive a proposition. We can only hope.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Seems if something isn't treated as a criminal offence it is viewed as an option or choice that one is free to decide for oneself.

Perhaps we need the police involved because it seems 2 years sitting on the sidelines of the sport is no deterrent. Perhaps a stint in clink will make it less attractive a proposition. We can only hope.

Indeed, we know that Ballan burst into tears when questioned, as did David Millar when forced to spend a couple of days in the cells. Where as no one fears a 2 year lay off interspersed with some appeals to CAS.

L'arriviste - have a look at: Kaliningrad, Varna, Transdnistra - all major entry points for smuggled goods - everything from drugs, peds, arms, people, alcohol, cigarettes.

 

[L'arriviste]

Indeed, we know that Ballan burst into tears when questioned, as did David Millar when forced to spend a couple of days in the cells. Where as no one fears a 2 year lay off interspersed with some appeals to CAS.

L'arriviste - have a look at: Kaliningrad, Varna, Transdnistra - all major entry points for smuggled goods - everything from drugs, peds, arms, people, alcohol, cigarettes.

Thanks for the info, MJM. Interesting and kind of scary too. When you talk about Ballan in tears, is that the confirmed identity of the champion Roberti described?

"One of the many people that have been interviewed in Padova was a real champion rider who had excited huge crowd with his riding ... But then after two hours of questioning and full confession, he started to cry and couldn’t stop..."

I haven't ploughed through the Gazzetta stories yet because my Italian is poor. Just wondered if the tears were confirmed as his.