are we seeing the effects of new PED

[Benotti69]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17908737

Another highly trained athlete collapses and dies from a supposedly Cardiac arrest!

Is it coincidence or are we seeing the dangerous side effect of a new PED?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17624284

http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/ital...nte-regains-consciousness-after-collapsing-in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piermario_Morosini

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/may/15/besian-idrizaj-liverpool-swansea-austria

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Ogoli

 

[Caruut]

Has been discussed a lot on the doping in football thread - the 3 SCDs in 10 years suffered by footballers in Europe's top 5 leagues puts the rate of incidence at 5x the population mean.

Expect some faux moral outrage from Mambo, too.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17908737

Another highly trained athlete collapses and dies from a supposedly Cardiac arrest!

Is it coincidence or are we seeing the dangerous side effect of a new PED?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17624284

http://www.goal.com/en/news/10/ital...nte-regains-consciousness-after-collapsing-in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piermario_Morosini

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/may/15/besian-idrizaj-liverpool-swansea-austria

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Ogoli

I'm no expert, but I somehow doubt that Nigerian domestic football is at the cutting edge of new PED technology. I'm not convinced a couple of second tier European clubs would be either.

 

[The Hitch]

Has been discussed a lot on the doping in football thread - the 3 SCDs in 10 years suffered by footballers in Europe's top 5 leagues puts the rate of incidence at 5x the population mean.

Expect some faux moral outrage from Mambo, too.

He seems to have discovered its more fun to troll this subforum through twitter.

Expect a tweet that the entire clinic section of cn forums, is against dead people.

Not just Benotti, but everyone who has ever posted in the clinic, know that you are against dead people too.

 

[Caruut]

Like if Muamba`s situation had anything to do with PEDs don`t you think he would of told doctors afterwards.

As has been said already this has been discussed in the doping in football thread and the reason it happens 5 times the population in sport is because a lot of the heart problems are inherited like hypertrophic cardiomyopathy which increases the risk of cardiac arrest during physical exercise.

This is a good article of 6 pages and the second page is of particular note here where they discuss sudden cardiac arrests in young people.

http://www.medicinenet.com/sudden_cardiac_death/article.htm

We don't have transcripts or accounts of conversations between Muamba and his doctors, so we really have no idea what he told his doctors - it should be covered by doctor-patient confidentiality as well.

 

[Caruut]

I just told you the reason why it is 5 times more in athletes than the normal population but for some reason people come on to a doping discussion when they have no basis for it. Give me a legit reason for talking doping with Muamba.

You don`t have a leg to stand on arguing about it. I already had an argument with you in the doping in football thread and I am not going into another one with you this time. I am not going to pay this nonsense any more lip service.

We had a top player our national sport in Ireland, Cormac McAnallen who played Gaelic football with Tyrone and who died in his sleep at 24 years old from an undetected heart condition. Read this from his Trust website where it talks about the main causes of SCA in young people. There is no doubt drug abuse can cause SCA but it is not the main and common reason for it in young sports people.

http://www.thecormactrust.com/medical-information/

Except that you didn't really tell me why it was 5 times higher. That article has no data (not that I doubt what it's saying) and doesn't say how much higher it should be.

To suggest that there's no point discussing this just because you say there isn't is ridiculous, and I'll give you your legit reason. He nearly died, and others have since died. To just assume that everything is fine without questioning what you know is ridiculous.

 

[pmcg76]

I just told you the reason why it is 5 times more in athletes than the normal population but for some reason people come on to a doping discussion when they have no basis for it. Give me a legit reason for talking doping with Muamba.

You don`t have a leg to stand on arguing about it. I already had an argument with you in the doping in football thread and I am not going into another one with you this time. I am not going to pay this nonsense any more lip service.

We had a top player our national sport in Ireland, Cormac McAnallen who played Gaelic football with Tyrone and who died in his sleep at 24 years old from an undetected heart condition. Read this from his Trust website where it talks about the main causes of SCA in young people. There is no doubt drug abuse can cause SCA but it is not the main and common reason for it in young sports people.

http://www.thecormactrust.com/medical-information/

Wasnt there two brothers playing amateur level football in Ireland a few years ago who both dropped dead on the football pitch from this problem. Not at the same time mind but it ran in the family.

 

[_Zipp0_]

Methylhexanamine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylhexanamine#Safety

Seems to cause heart attacks in healthy young men and you can get it OTC.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

FOOTBALLERS HAVE ENLARGED HEARTS ACCORDING TO STUDY ..apparently.

http://forzaitalianfootball.com/2012/04/footballers-have-enlarged-hearts-according-to-study/

Posted on Wednesday, 18th April 2012 by Forza Italian Football Staff
A three-year study undertaken in Siena by a cardiology clinic suggests that professional footballers have different characteristics in the shape of their hearts.
The study which began in August 2009 in the Santa Maria alle Scotte hospital came to the conclusion that the heart has different cardiovascular characteristics that are peculiar to athletes and adapts in a dynamic manner during the season based on the type of training.
“In footballers, the cardiac chambers and muscular mass of the heart are enlarged, with ulterior incremental improvements in the functional capacity of the organ,” explained Doctor Andrea Causarano.
It involved monitoring the cardiac function of the players over the past three seasons, “allowing excellent results in the area of scientific research.
“This is important when optimizing training to improve performance with great focus on health. These observations were presented at various Italian and European cardiology seminars.’ clarified Professor Sergio Mondillo.
“With further tests on stem cells in the youth team players, we also noted how intense training or a sedentary lifestyle provides a different stimulus to the production of stem cells and therefore probably different mechanisms for self-repair.”
The heart problems in football players have been much concerned issue in recent weeks with the death of Livorno’s Piermario Morosini and collapse of Fabrice Muamba.

 

[The Hitch]

e.

We had a top player our national sport in Ireland, Cormac McAnallen who played Gaelic football with Tyrone and who died in his sleep at 24 years old from an undetected heart condition.

Interesting. Could it be that maybe some athletes, the condition that kills them is the same one that makes them good.

I say this, thinking of one of my sporting heroes, a guy named Jesse Marunde, who dies cos his heart was simply too large. I'm no medic but I assume a large heart probably would have helped in his sport, and at the same time, with it, he didn't have a chance of living into his 30's.

 

[Polish]

I'm no expert, but I somehow doubt that Nigerian domestic football is at the cutting edge of new PED technology. I'm not convinced a couple of second tier European clubs would be either.

I agree that the Nigerian domestic football programs are not cutting edge.
The teams using cutting edge are much safer. Higher budgets.
The early deaths from EPO were not on cutting edge teams.

That said, I highly doubt a new PED could sneak by now - in the day of the Super Sleuth Clinic Squad. And we all know the only super PED is vintage 1999 EPO. Nothing is more super than that. Well, maybe 1991 EPO.

 

[Merckx index]

I think it is worthwhile discussing it but the kind of discussion I would like is the level of screening and can there be more done to detect these heart conditions. But you only want to talk about this from a doping point of view.

Imagine that, wanting to take a doping point of view in the Clinic! I think both points of view are valid, certainly your links are welcome here, but I don’t see how doping can be definitely ruled out in at least some of these cases.

Moreover, if it were doping, it wouldn’t necessarily have to be some new cutting-edge substance. If you google EPO deaths cycling, as I did recently trying to find more information on those Dutch and Belgian riders who allegedly died in the late 1980s, most of what you get are stories in 2004 when they talk about how all these riders are keeling over from EPO. The dangers of this drug did not end in the early 1990s. I think the death of any athlete who could benefit from EPO has to be considered in this light.

In any case, enlarged hearts are very common among athletes. I have been told my heart, or part of it, is larger than normal, and I don’t even ride that much any more. We all know that LA (yep, gotta bring him in here) has a heart three times larger than normal, which explains why he could win 7 Tours squeaky clean. I guess he must have some other physiological freakiness that accounts for why he is not at risk for sudden cardiac arrest.

 

[Havetts]

I say this, thinking of one of my sporting heroes, a guy named Jesse Marunde, who dies cos his heart was simply too large. I'm no medic but I assume a large heart probably would have helped in his sport, and at the same time, with it, he didn't have a chance of living into his 30's.

This is what my dad argued as well, there is a chance that the heart has become so big from needing that during endurance that during not being active your heartrate would drop to about 20 to 30 so that would be a heartbeat each 2 secs approx. so in that time it isnt beating there could be clots forming and if one of those clots would be pumped into the lungs it would be game over.

I'm no expert on this, this is how my dad explained how it could have happened, dad works in hospitals for 32 years already so hopefully he's right on the explanation, so I hope I wrote it down properly

 

[Albatros]

In this article, Josep Brugada, a famous cardiologist states in unequivocal terms that doping as we all know, can enlarge the muscles, and that includes the heart. So cardiac hypertrophy can be produced by the use of PEDs.

 

[MarkvW]

In this article, Josep Brugada, a famous cardiologist states in unequivocal terms that doping as we all know, can enlarge the muscles, and that includes the heart. So cardiac hypertrophy can be produced by the use of PEDs.

Makes sense to me. If your heart is pumping sludge all day, it is bound to be a much stronger and more developed muscle.

 

[ChrisE]

In any case, enlarged hearts are very common among athletes. I have been told my heart, or part of it, is larger than normal, and I don’t even ride that much any more. We all know that LA (yep, gotta bring him in here) has a heart three times larger than normal, which explains why he could win 7 Tours squeaky clean. I guess he must have some other physiological freakiness that accounts for why he is not at risk for sudden cardiac arrest.

I hear LA drinks Drano chasers with his Ultra.

 

[Caruut]

The reason why I dont like the talk about doping is that I think it is very disrespectful to Muamba and Morosini to insinuate a discussion about doping. If you have evidence or any other poster has evidence why dont yee share it? If not then stop talking about it and start talking about the level of screening and what can be done to detect these heart problems.

We had this doping nonsense even when Muamba was still fighting for his life and what kind of respect is shown there.

CRY do a lot of work in the UK and they do everthing to raise awareness on the issue. Just look at these tragedies that they talk about. Do you think there is possible doping going on here as well?

http://www.c-r-y.org.uk/south_west_postcard_launch_2012.htm

I posted in the doping in football thread the possible reasons for Muamba`s SCA that the Sky News correspondent said at the time which could be the cause. I notice of the 3 possible reasons he didnt mention doping.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=818190&postcount=176

Didn't you get your fill of this on the other thread?

Why is it disrespectful? How exactly does it impact them? Only people who are willing to believe there is doping in football are going to believe these two would have had anything to do with the stuff, and if so, I'm sure they would be mature enough to view the individual incidents as part of a wider culture, not isolated cases.

Brilliant - the guy Sky hired didn't mention doping? Sky have an enormous amount of money involved in football. Damaging the image of football would not only decrease their ad revenue in the short term, but they would probably find it much harder to secure rights for football in the long term for breaking omerta, so of course they aren't going to do that.

Moreover, as was said on the other thread, to come out and say something on the news about doping publicly is really very different from discussing it on a doping forum. That's what this is, remember? If you don't want to read this, you know what you can do. Don't click on the threads. Otherwise, maybe hold off being the moral policeman of the Clinic?

 

[2008885]

Makes sense to me. If your heart is pumping sludge all day, it is bound to be a much stronger and more developed muscle.

That may be the case, but doing any kind of sport that involves physical effort will enlarge your heart - dope isn't a prerequisite.

 

[sniper]

there must at least be an indirect link between PEDs and these cases,
even if it's only the fact that endurance PEDs allow athletes to train harder than their body can naturally handle (or causes the heart to grow larger than biologically destined).

nonetheless, in spite of the chain of recent athlete-deaths, i find the sum-total of accidents to be rather low in their sum.
if there are experimental drugs circulating (which I do not doubt), I'd perhaps have expected the rate of accidents to be a bit higher still.
Perhaps one reason for comparatively few accidents (compared to the increasingly heavy PED use in topsports) is that nowadays only few topathletes dope themselves. Most topathletes, I assume, have a solid medical team around them.

 

[RownhamHill]

They also done a lot of coverage of Kolo Toure`s test and Rio Ferdinand missed test. So your theory is rubbish.

It's got to be said that the coverage of Kolo Toure's test was bizarre though. Top athlete, at one of the world's top teams, takes diet pill in order to lose excess weight after injury so he can get back to full fitness (kind of the definition of cheating using drugs right there), but it's all OK and a bit of a jolly jape because (apparently) it was one of his wife's pills. . .

 

[Albatros]

That may be the case, but doing any kind of sport that involves physical effort will enlarge your heart - dope isn't a prerequisite.

And doping will enlarge it even further. We are talking about factors that can contribute to these cardiac arrests and doping is one of them.

 

[Albatros]

there must at least be an indirect link between PEDs and these cases,
even if it's only the fact that endurance PEDs allow athletes to train harder than their body can naturally handle (or causes the heart to grow larger than biologically destined).

nonetheless, in spite of the chain of recent athlete-deaths, i find the sum-total of accidents to be rather low in their sum.
if there are experimental drugs circulating (which I do not doubt), I'd perhaps have expected the rate of accidents to be a bit higher still.
Perhaps one reason for comparatively few accidents (compared to the increasingly heavy PED use in topsports) is that nowadays only few topathletes dope themselves. Most topathletes, I assume, have a solid medical team around them.

Are you sure that doping use is on the increase? In football at least, there is evidence that doping has been widespread for many decades if we go by the very few who have confesed to it. As I don't see any reason for anyone within the sport to falsely confess to wrongdoing, I take those statements at face value. And there are plenty.

 

[Caruut]

Haha.

Do you know Sky have a cycling team and yet they were doing big coverage on the day Contador`s ban was being announced. So dont give me this nonsense that they were protecting their coverage of football. They also done a lot of coverage of Kolo Toure`s test and Rio Ferdinand missed test. So your theory is rubbish.

I gave you a link to CRY and you just scoffed and dismissed it. I ask you now are the people who sufferred SCA in that picture possible dopers so? I know a player in an u-15s schoolboys match over here who it happenned to. Is he a possible doper too?

Also I will click on any thread I want. If you have a problem you know what to do, ignore list me. Stop this doping obsessiveness that you have.

Also you say this is a doping forum. So talk about doping when there is a need for it and a basis for it and stop adding arms and legs on to the Muamba and the Morosini SCA and linking it on to a doping discussion.

I don't want to put you on ignore, you quite often have things worth hearing.

You know that I'm not claiming that doping is the only cause of SCD. Why do you insist on making the debate overly emotive by trying to frame me as accusing some poor dead 15 year old kid of doping? That right there is disrespectful - using their memory as a cheap play in an online debate.

I actually did read a lot of the CRY website first time around. It sounds absolutely terrible and I have no doubt that this is what happened to Muamba. I agree with you that more screening should be done. However, I also think it is naive to suggest that PEDs could absolutely not have been a contributing factor in this case, especially when I believe that they are quite prevalent in football.

For the sake of the thread, should we just agree to disagree?

 

[lilac harry quinn]

Going back to the original post, Of all the top swimmers, Dale Oen would have been one of the least suspicious. At the time of the 'technological doping' with the suits of 2009, he was one of the most vociferous opponents - swimming the final in Rome in briefs and coming nowhere in a race he would almost certainly have medalled. One can never tell, but that is not the attitude of a win at all costs doper.

 

[Caruut]

Going back to the original post, Of all the top swimmers, Dale Oen would have been one of the least suspicious. At the time of the 'technological doping' with the suits of 2009, he was one of the most vociferous opponents - swimming the final in Rome in briefs and coming nowhere in a race he would almost certainly have medalled. One can never tell, but that is not the attitude of a win at all costs doper.

Good post. What proportion of swimmers opposed the suits?