Armstrong should only be the first

I think UCI/ASO/USDA/ should take away all seven of Armstrong's TDF wins and all his other wins - Wipe him clean from the books but I also think if they want to make a real statement they need to do more....

I believe they should also take away Ullrich's, Contador's as well Pantani's tour wins.

They need take away the Grand tour titles or major classic wins from Basso, Heras, Valverde and Johan Museeuw and anyone else who has served a suspension due to doping.

They should also declare that riders who doped cannot work in the sport as a director or support staff or in the media - Allan Peiper, Eric Zabel, Frankie Andreu

Because if they don't, then in a sick sort of way it is a witch hunt.

Let me reiterate that Armstrong should be the first. He is overwhelmingly guilty. And should receive the harshest penalties available.

But the others are guilty as well and should be treated the same.

If it means a systemic blowing up of the record books, so be it.
 
Oct 20, 2009
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I agree.

I have my doubts about Armstrong albeit still not 100% sure if he did dope or not. But if he has and all the others that have they should be wiped of all their wins and these Tour Victories should be left as unvictorious by anyone and serve as a constant reminder of the "Dark Days" of cycling.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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You mean blank pages from 1903 onwards. There was already doping in 600BC in the Olympics, do we erase results in sports from then on?

All this is maddening because doping is being treated as a moral problem. It isn't a moral problem, it's a health problem. It's about time everyone remembered that.

On the other hand I would love to know if Armstrong's 'regimen' allowed him to recover from chemo to the point of being able to father two children naturally. I wish someone would study that, since that would be a revolution for those who have undergone chemo with resultant sterility.
 
Oct 26, 2009
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catmiles said:
I agree.

I have my doubts about Armstrong albeit still not 100% sure if he did dope or not. But if he has and all the others that have they should be wiped of all their wins and these Tour Victories should be left as unvictorious by anyone and serve as a constant reminder of the "Dark Days" of cycling.
Why are you not 100% sure? Why would 10 or more people risk going to jail by lying under oath? Please offer a rational explanation for that.
 
Jul 10, 2012
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or they could call that time gap (1991-20??) the EPO era ... and let Lance keep his titles.

Why take tour victories away from one cheater and give it to another cheater?
 
Mar 26, 2009
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WildspokeJoe said:
I think UCI/ASO/USDA/ should take away all seven of Armstrong's TDF wins and all his other wins - Wipe him clean from the books but I also think if they want to make a real statement they need to do more....

I believe they should also take away Ullrich's, Contador's as well Pantani's tour wins.

They need take away the Grand tour titles or major classic wins from Basso, Heras, Valverde and Johan Museeuw and anyone else who has served a suspension due to doping.

.
Yes, take away all of Merckx's wins and see how well THAT goes down.
 
May 26, 2010
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silverrocket said:
Yes, take away all of Merckx's wins and see how well THAT goes down.
I have no problem with that.

But remember Armstrong's doping coincided with the biggest raid on doping in history. The Festina affair. He knew what he was doing was so very very wrong but he continued when others had pulled back. It was why he won so very convincingly the 99 TdF.

To remove Armstrong from the ists of Winners is just deserts for dragging the sport back into the dark just when a ray of light appeared. He did not do it alone. No UCI were there every step of the way.
 
Oct 26, 2009
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silverrocket said:
Yes, take away all of Merckx's wins and see how well THAT goes down.
The best way to implement that is to start it now. Let Lance be the first and then it starts going forward.
 
Benotti69 said:
But remember Armstrong's doping coincided with the biggest raid on doping in history. The Festina affair. He knew what he was doing was so very very wrong but he continued when others had pulled back. It was why he won so very convincingly the 99 TdF.
No, It was because Alex Zulle lost 6 minutes on the passage du gois.

But I agree with the rest you said.
 
catmiles said:
I agree.

I have my doubts about Armstrong albeit still not 100% sure if he did dope or not.
Haha! His doping goes all the way back to his years as a Junior under Chris Carmichael and Rene Wenzel. There was a lawsuit about that with Greg Strock as one party. He doped and he ran a team-wide, mandatory doping program. End of story.

You guys are looking at the back end of this horse. The front end of the doping problem is, at minimum the UCI.

Specific to Armstrong, his Tailwind/Capital Sports and Entertainment buddies run USA cycling. Big problems at the very top of the American cycling federation.

Fire the UCI from doping enforcement, let WADA open cases against athletes and watch the positives pile up. That will discourage doping. Back test samples and give current suspensions for them will really discourage doping.

Stop focusing on the riders. They are just one small part, albeit the most visible part of the problem.
 
TylerDurden1 said:
or they could call that time gap (1991-20??) the EPO era ... and let Lance keep his titles.

Why take tour victories away from one cheater and give it to another cheater?
"If you think it is a joke to award the result to Jan Ullrich, Fernando Escartin or Joseba Beloki then the same logic dictates it is a farce for Armstrong to keep the win because he was doing the same."
:the inrng
 
TylerDurden1 said:
or they could call that time gap (1991-20??) the EPO era ... and let Lance keep his titles.

Why take tour victories away from one cheater and give it to another cheater?
Your reasoning for 1991 specifically? Bearing in mind people will ask for proof that Indurain doped.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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WildspokeJoe said:
They should also declare that riders who doped cannot work in the sport as a director or support staff or in the media - Allan Peiper, Eric Zabel, Frankie Andreu
I agree here, just like in society they don't let bank robbers work as bankers and child molesters run day care centers, ex-doper riders should not now run cycling. (That includes the spin doctors like Johnathan Vaughters, it needs to be fair across the board no special exceptions).

At present cycling is looking rather farcical, and in their supposed attempt to improve cycling you clean house not let the wolves run the hen house.
 

the big ring

BANNED
Jul 28, 2009
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ElChingon said:
I agree here, just like in society they don't let bank robbers work as bankers and child molesters run day care centers, ex-doper riders should not now run cycling. (That includes the spin doctors like Johnathan Vaughters, it needs to be fair across the board no special exceptions).

At present cycling is looking rather farcical, and in their supposed attempt to improve cycling you clean house not let the wolves run the hen house.
But they do employ computer hackers as security experts... WIN! :D
 
WildspokeJoe said:
I think UCI/ASO/USDA/ should take away all seven of Armstrong's TDF wins and all his other wins - Wipe him clean from the books but I also think if they want to make a real statement they need to do more....

I believe they should also take away Ullrich's, Contador's as well Pantani's tour wins.

They need take away the Grand tour titles or major classic wins from Basso, Heras, Valverde and Johan Museeuw and anyone else who has served a suspension due to doping.

They should also declare that riders who doped cannot work in the sport as a director or support staff or in the media - Allan Peiper, Eric Zabel, Frankie Andreu

Because if they don't, then in a sick sort of way it is a witch hunt.

Let me reiterate that Armstrong should be the first. He is overwhelmingly guilty. And should receive the harshest penalties available.

But the others are guilty as well and should be treated the same.

If it means a systemic blowing up of the record books, so be it.
If they really want to clean up the sport, then strip Anquetil and Merckx(both ADMITTED dopers) of a couple of their titles too, what's fair is fair.

But I like where you're going
 
Jul 23, 2009
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The only way this becomes a witch hunt is if we abandon the standard of proof and start finding people guilty based on what we think we know. Remember that there were witnesses capable of stating that they observed Armstrong committing those offences at those times. Something that we don't have for Ullrich, Zabel, Merckx, etc. Taking away Ullrich's 2005 TDF podium place based on blood and a 2005 TDF doping plan found in Fuentes' lab... no problem. Taking away his 1997 Tour win based on this evidence... big problem.

I agree that this should be a first step into removing the corruption in the sport and not the final step against Lance Armstrong. The way forward is to take on the UCI, not to focus energy on altering the record books without the due process that was offered to Armstrong.
 
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