Attn: Embedded links, Skimwords

[Archibald]

I think this is worthy of escalating.
See here: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=13110

it would appear that someone (or something) is adding links to shopping sites into posts...

 

[palmerq]

That's queer, I don't see a link in anyones posts(when I go to edit it) that contains this link... I will inform the admin guys

giro

 

[Ferminal]

I think it's intentional. The links are provided by skimresources.com I first noticed last week during P-R. I asked but haven't got a reply yet.

 

[Father Jack]

I just tried it and it took me straight to an ebay page but showing that it recognised who I was - scary!

 

[krebs303]

The only link on that page that I see is my post. It takes me to cycling torrents.
Where are these other links?

 

[Ferminal]

The only link on that page that I see is my post. It takes me to cycling torrents.
Where are these other links?

They may not load for every person, or load every refresh. The one I most often see is 'Garmin'.

 

[Granville57]

Aha!
I just sent a PM to Barrus about the same issue and then came here to start a thread, but obviously others have noticed the same.

I came across two back-to-back examples of it in The Clinic and thought maybe I was missing out on an inside joke or something. Then I saw the same in the Pro Racing forum and knew that something was going on.

I too also noticed that when quoting the "infected" posts, the HTML for the link was hidden from sight.
Creepy.

When I click on the link, my address bar very briefly flashes a link to "skimwords" before fully redirecting me to the eBay site a Giro helmet auction.
Which led me to track down this:
http://skimlinks.com/skimwords

If CN has decided to use this software as a means to generate income then it would've nice of them to at least announce their intentions ahead of time. This is exactly the kind of stuff that infuriates me the most about digital technology and and how the internet is manipulated by those behind the curtain.

You need ad revenue? Fine. I understand economics. But could we know about it before these little surprises pop up?

I'm not going to rant too heavily until I find out if this was done intentionally on the part of CN administrators or not. But I will share one concern since the method does exist and very well may be in service here or may be up for consideration by the owners of this site.

A link to Garmin products from the word "Garmin" has an obvious connection. And since the company is the main sponsor of one of the top cycling teams, the connection is all the more pertinent.

BUT...when the word "Giro" is used to refer to the race, and the link is to an auction for helmets that merely use the same name, well that's an entirely different spin on an already intrusive idea. People often cleverly embed links into their posts on this forum, and was I expecting to see something that related to the Giro d'Italia or reinforced a point being made in the post.

If we have no way of knowing what were about to click on (is it a commercial for product, or an entertaining member-generated link?) then that is detrimental to the whole experience of even being in this forum in the first place.

If these are appearing by design, then I, for one, will cease to embed links into my posts and just paste the url so as to avoid any confusion.

And I'm since I'm not actually ranting yet let me just add that there is no way in hell that I would stop in the middle of a thread to do some shopping just because a link was slipped into my reading experience. It tends to leave a bad taste in my mouth towards those very same advertisers as well.

But of course, I'm not ranting...yet.

Edit:
Very cute. I just noticed that the use of the word "Giro" in this post has now become one of those "secret little links."
Starting to hate...

 

[Cal_Joe]

If you are using Firefox with the No Script add in you can simply block script from skimresources.com.

I know this doesn't address the origin of the links but with the above configuration they do not show up.

 

[Granville57]

skimwords links

Soooo...no answers yet?

The "Bikes and Gear" sub-forum seems fraught with these little pests.

 

[palmerq]

Nobody knows :S, I think most of the moderators don't really have much to do with the actual website of cyclingnews, only moderate the forum. I think susan is away on holiday, she would know, but I doubt it is anything to worry about.

 

[Anonymous]

i really hope they arent going with skim words. at least with adwords it clearly marks the links with a double underscore.

Skimwords is naughty at best, and downright sneaky at worst.

Personally, my feeling is, when we are writing something ourselves, hijacking what we right and putting in advertising is a bit naughty.

At least give us commission and I will happily write posts about giro, garmin, chris boardman, halfords, wiggle and about anything else you want me to drop into the conversation.

at least have them set up so they are clearly advertising and not hidden like they are now. naughty naughty.

 

[Granville57]

Personally, my feeling is, when we are writing something ourselves, hijacking what we right and putting in advertising is a bit naughty.

Agreed.

Especially when their own website promotes Skimwords with this:

This new product from Skimlinks recognizes product references in editorial and user-generated content, and turns these into unobtrusive shopping links that can earn you money.

But on this site, we are NOT referencing products much of the time. Garmin and Giro are perfect examples. A team and a race are quite different from a GPS unit and a helmet.

When I first started looking into it, I saw that other sites made it exceptionally clear when Skimwords were being employed.
These were the first two pages I came across:
gears lutz
gears lutz faq

EDIT:
Just realized those links still don't work. The world filter won't allow the URL because of the "S + LUT" part.
Here are the links. You'll have to copy/paste them into your address bar and then manually remove the single space immediately after the word "gears."

http://www.gears lutz.com/board/gadgets-gadgets-gadgets/534095-afilliate-links-gadgets-gadgets-gadgets-sub-forum.html

http://www.gears lutz.com/board/faq.php?faq=vb_faq

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed.

Especially when their own website promotes Skimwords with this:
But on this site, we are NOT referencing products much of the time. Garmin and Giro are perfect examples. A team and a race are quite different from a GPS unit and a helmet.

When I first started looking into it, I saw that other sites made it exceptionally clear when Skimwords were being employed.
These were the first two pages I came across:
gears lutz

gears lutz faq

Btw, I had to manually alter those URLs because the word filter wouldn't accept the link with the site's name.
The asterisks got rejected by the browser. It turned up like this:
gear****z

this is my thought. Advertising is one thing, i even click on them on some sites to support the website. Having link words in editorials or articles written by CN staff is fine, as long as those linkwords are clearly indicated as adverts with the standard double underscore...

But taking what I write and inserting advertising into key words, I personally think is out. I write here to pass comment, or opinion personally, not to have what I write make money for CN. IF that is the case and what I write makes you money, then pay me.

(and that does happen. you can actually earn a lot of money just by writing on forums)

 

[Granville57]

I'll take that one step further. But I'll preface it all by admitting that we really don't know yet what's at play here or what decisions have been made. Nevertheless, it's still a good discussion to have.

Here's what bothers me most about it:
Advertisements are part of the forum. The reason is obvious. But that also verifies that there are people reading the forum (and as is readily apparent, many, many more people read than post). So it must be agreed that there are "eyes on the site."

That being said, Why are people visiting the forum? Because of the content that is provided for free by every member who contributes. CN provides the platform, the members provide the content.

As a matter of principal, if my words are turned into advertising links (and that is already happening) without even the courtesy of notifying me of the process, then I will simply self-censor those key words out of my posts or alter them accordingly.

Let's try these, based on some words I've come across that have been embedded with links:
G1ro, Garm1n-Cervel0, Mav1c, cl1nchers, rac3 wh33ls, c0mplete b1ke

It's also odd when some of the generic words simply go to an eBay page with multiple brands being sold. So is that just an eBay plug?

And what if I don't want my words to be linked to a company that perhaps I don't support or am personally opposed to?

Slippery slope.

 

[Barrus]

People, I understand you are a bit upset, we ourselves don't like it either. But at the moment we cannot get the required information. It will take a few days before we will get any explanation from CN, so please sit tight and understand that at the moment there is nothing we can do

 

[JA.Tri]

I'll take that one step further. But I'll preface it all by admitting that we really don't know yet what's at play here or what decisions have been made. Nevertheless, it's still a good discussion to have.

Here's what bothers me most about it:
Advertisements are part of the forum. The reason is obvious. But that also verifies that there are people reading the forum (and as is readily apparent, many, many more people read than post). So it must be agreed that there are "eyes on the site."

That being said, Why are people visiting the forum? Because of the content that is provided for free by every member who contributes. CN provides the platform, the members provide the content.

As a matter of principal, if my words are turned into advertising links (and that is already happening) without even the courtesy of notifying me of the process, then I will simply self-censor those key words out of my posts or alter them accordingly.

Let's try these, based on some words I've come across that have been embedded with links:
G1ro, Garm1n-Cervel0, Mav1c, cl1nchers, rac3 wh33ls, c0mplete b1ke

It's also odd when some of the generic words simply go to an eBay page with multiple brands being sold. So is that just an eBay plug?

And what if I don't want my words to be linked to a company that perhaps I don't support or am personally opposed to?

Slippery slope.

+1 transparency most important.

Also an agreed process for dealing with the various effects arising from Sk1mw0rds

 

[Anonymous]

And what if I don't want my words to be linked to a company that perhaps I don't support or am personally opposed to?

Slippery slope.

And that is another very good point. There are certain companies I dont support, for instance N.ike for their appaling employee record and use of slave labour. And the same goes for several clothing manufacturers that we dont shop at or support.

The quality of the content on the forum BRINGS people to the site. Use the advertising panels, but dont start putting stuff in what we write.

 

[Anonymous]

add pr-o pelo-ton to the list.

 

[Daniel Benson]

Hi all,

I'm chasing the ad/marketing teams for a response on this.

Thanks for your patience

Dan

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Dan.

Seen a few around today. The biggest problem is they look like links people have posted in threads, so its a right sneaky way to get clicks (as well as the afformention issue with us writing stuff, our own words, but cn using our words for advertising). If they could be double underscored I think it would ease a lot of complaints.

 

[Daniel Benson]

"Our apologies for not notifying the Cyclingnews community in advance that we're testing Skimwords on the Cyclingnews forum. This is a short term test and we are monitoring your feedback through the forums and the response rates to the ads themselves.

We understand that a minority of users have an issue with this kind of advertising but advertising is how we fund the site. Ads allow us to provide you with news and race reports 24/7 and for free - and they fund this forum. We are investigating a few different advertising models over the coming months in an attempt to find new ways for our advertisers to engage with you in a way that you find interesting and to that end we have created a forum thread for your feedback on your preferred ad formats (insert link here).

We will continue to work hard to maintain the balance between advertising and editorial and appreciate your support and feedback on this. We will ensure that in future we let you know what we're up to and we hope you take the opportunity to provide us with constructive feedback on how you would like our advertisers to communicate with you."

 

[Barrus]

To be quite honest if you start using skimwords I'll probably stop reading this forum for the most part and go to another forum. I don't mind advertising, but this type of advertising really goes a bit to far

 

[Francois the Postman]

We understand that a minority of users have an issue with this kind of advertising but advertising is how we fund the site. Ads allow us to provide you with news and race reports 24/7 and for free - and they fund this forum. We are investigating a few different advertising models over the coming months in an attempt to find new ways for our advertisers to engage with you in a way that you find interesting and to that end we have created a forum thread for your feedback on your preferred ad formats (insert link here).

I don't mind it when you are putting any link that you want in your own writings, but I think you are crossing a line when you insert links into the keywords that are part of my writing. "I" could be hotlinking to all sorts of places that I don't want to support at all.

I think forum-posts should be exempted from the "feature", and, at least in the testing phase, they were not. You are disrespecting my contribution when you take ownership of what I want to convey and mess about with it, so it becomes what you want to convey.

in the site, I also think they should be visible different from the links that were put there originally (in colour or when hovering or something), as I don't want to end up on the Giro site when I expect a Giro overview page here, for instance.

And add me to that minority that dislikes that type of advertising, blurring the line between content and ads.

 

[pedaling squares]

I don't find this offensive, the site needs to generate income. If I write "Garmin" and you make it a link to the Garmin site, well it is the same company that I was writing about after all. If CN changed my words or altered their meaning, I would leave this site. Using them to link to an advertisement... well I can't say that I like it but I do like having a free cycling site. I trust the site to select ethical companies and can voice my opinion or vote with my keyboard if they do not. People who take offence will just alter the spelling anyway.

EDIT: Ha! Skimlinked in my skimlink post. Now had I written Gurmin...

 

[Anonymous]

To be quite honest if you start using skimwords I'll probably stop reading this forum for the most part and go to another forum. I don't mind advertising, but this type of advertising really goes a bit to far

I don't mind it when you are putting any link that you want in your own writings, but I think you are crossing a line when you insert links into the keywords that are part of my writing. "I" could be hotlinking to all sorts of places that I don't want to support at all.

That for me is the main issue. A lot of members here put links within posts, and most of us go to the effort to put them in our posts properly, rather than just posting the link. The way skimwords are setup are exactly the same so there is no way of telling what is a genuine link put in by a poster and what is a skimword.

I have issues with what I write being used to bring in revenue, but I would have a lot less of an issue if it was made a lot clearer what was a skimword. Virtually every site that uses this kind of advertising uses the double underscore method that makes it clear what is advertising. Do that and I think a lot of the complaints will cease.

But as it is, its a sneaky way of exploiting users posts and making revenue. And the kind of reveune it will bring is probably wont even be worth the aggro.

"I" could be hotlinking to all sorts of places that I don't want to support at all..

And that is a another big point. For instance, we have nothing to do with buying anything to do with Nike (Slave labour issues), Coca Cola (Slavery issues), Proctor and Gamble (Animal Welfare Issues), and a large number of other companies. I have the choice with links wether to click on links to these companies or not, I have the choice wether to allow them to advertise on my own website, but I have major issues with my words potentially helping to advertise companies I dont support.

We understand that a minority of users have an issue with this kind of advertising but advertising is how we fund the site. Ads allow us to provide you with news and race reports 24/7 and for free - and they fund this forum. We are investigating a few different advertising models over the coming months in an attempt to find new ways for our advertisers to engage with you in a way that you find interesting and to that end we have created a forum thread for your feedback on your preferred ad formats (insert link here).

But does the forum not bring a lot of traffic to the site as well, which in turn brings in advertising revenue. If you closed the forum, I would be willing to bet your overall traffic and therefore advertising revenue would drop. In such the forum pays for itself over and over. How much does the forum actually cost, once installed, you have voluntary admins who do all the day to day moderation. All its costing is server space which is nickle and dimes. I would guess that there are a lot of CN visitors who come to the site purely, or certainly primerily for the forum. So I wouldnt say the forum is paid for by advertising. Rather that the forum brings in advertising revenue. To be honest, id rather see banner ads at the top of threads. The Lance threads should be worth a pretty penny in advertising.